Why you don't do a 5 second count in your head

[Rich]

Originally Posted by beachbum

SEE RICHMSN, there are many officials that do the mechanics different from the exact interpretation of the rules. My statement simply put, was " don't depend on the officials for the arm count, it is risky at best"

And they are dead wrong. Period.

I'd like to see them explain this to someone showing them a film a four arm swing.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Then in the off-season you need to practice your counts with 5-10lbs dumbells in your hand. Do 3-5 sets of 10 in front of a mirror. Mix in raising your hands to the sky with a 15-20lb dumbells.



In this case, yes, I will sometimes be to 2 in my head before I start my count.

And I will start a second or two later with "one." I think this is just as wrong as the closely guarded. Coaches look for this and I think they should. It's good coaching.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And I will start a second or two later with "one." I think this is just as wrong as the closely guarded. Coaches look for this and I think they should. It's good coaching.

Agree to disagree on this one. I don't think in situations where there was a lot going on around the ball at the time of a change of possession that a coach is paying attention to when your arm motion started. They are usually focused on the action surrounding the ball. In the case of 5-second counts, the official and the ball-handler are the primary focus. In fact, I don't think a coach is ever focused on the number of strokes to 10 seconds. I've never received any grief for a 10-second violation, but half the time 5-second calls will get some kind of moaning and groaning, no matter how right the call is.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Agree to disagree on this one. I don't think in situations where there was a lot going on around the ball at the time of a change of possession that a coach is paying attention to when your arm motion started. They are usually focused on the action surrounding the ball. In the case of 5-second counts, the official and the ball-handler are the primary focus. In fact, I don't think a coach is ever focused on the number of strokes to 10 seconds. I've never received any grief for a 10-second violation, but half the time 5-second calls will get some kind of moaning and groaning, no matter how right the call is.

I coached for 8 years; 6 before I refereed. You're 100% wrong. Not all, but many coaches know exactly what the counting mechanic is, and how many times you've swung your arm.

Doesn't matter. The mechanic is to show your count. Just do the mechanic and be done with it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Agree to disagree on this one. I don't think in situations where there was a lot going on around the ball at the time of a change of possession that a coach is paying attention to when your arm motion started. They are usually focused on the action surrounding the ball. In the case of 5-second counts, the official and the ball-handler are the primary focus. In fact, I don't think a coach is ever focused on the number of strokes to 10 seconds. I've never received any grief for a 10-second violation, but half the time 5-second calls will get some kind of moaning and groaning, no matter how right the call is.

What about 2-7-9?: The officials shall conduct the game according to the rules. This includes: ..."Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in, free throw, backcourt, and closely-guarded rules."

The rule book tells us we need to count in these instances. Only counting part of the time seems lazy. If we are not showing a count, then they are not closely-guarded. If I'm a coach, and I see a count start, I may want to request a TO when I see the official get to 4. If the official only gets to 3 and blows the whistle for the violation, we will probably be shooting FT's at the other end.

[beachbum]

Without discussing what an officials should do, as per the rules book. any coach that depends on what an official is doing or counting is "risky at best". If all officials adheired to the rules book, then coaches could expect that 5 swings of the arm is 5 seconds.

I just think that many officials have varied techniques, that are not by the rules, especially in mid school games, and they should not be depended on

[Adam]

Originally Posted by beachbum

Without discussing what an officials should do, as per the rules book. any coach that depends on what an official is doing or counting is "risky at best". If all officials adheired to the rules book, then coaches could expect that 5 swings of the arm is 5 seconds.

I just think that many officials have varied techniques, that are not by the rules, especially in mid school games, and they should not be depended on

While you're right, it still does not absolve the officials of the responsibility to do it right. It's sort of like the 20 second substitution clock. You're supposed to have a horn after 5 seconds, but if you don't have that horn, can you call the T anyway?

[BillyMac]

Every game, at every level, that we officiate nowadays is on tape, a game tape, a local community cable station, or some parent's cellphone. Every time we're supposed to show a visible count, we had better show it, either five chops, or ten chops. The days of using a mental count, and then continuing the visible chop at number two, or three, have long passed.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Amesman

I think Fritz has something worth discussing here -- when it pertains to a 10-second count. If you're L and there's a shot and a rebound, you better be watching for contact, traveling, etc. -- so that it's almost natural that a second or two elapses after B does in fact secure the rebound and start back down court -- and your arm isn't flapping yet. Or is it consensus that B just gets that extra front-end tick or two before the count starts?

Or am I just getting too slow-reflexed in my old age?

Interesting - I have always presumed that my count starts when my arm starts moving, and that doesn't start moving until I have established that the backcourt team has secured possession.

If that gives them an extra tick or two, oh well. But it goes both ways - count does not start until I decide that they are in control, and that is when my arm begins.

I am rather surprised that it could any other way, to be honest. Learn something new every day.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Hogwash, hogwash, hogwash. If you can't do two things at once, become the damn ballboy. The mechanic is simple. When the player is closely guarded, you begin the count with the proper extension of the arm. Each extension of the arm -- STARTING WITH THE NUMBER ONE -- counts toward the five count. While the "not closely guarded" signal is new to NFHS, the fact that we change arms and stop the count has been a mechanic forever.

Officials who do the first one or two counts "mentally" will NOT get to do high level games. I always looked at the official to see if he was counting. The mechanics manual tells us exactly what to do. Don't make excuses as to why you can't do it. Just practice it until you can watch for things like a travel, a bumping foul, a player control foul, etc. while extending the arm and counting.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Then in the off-season you need to practice your counts with 5-10lbs dumbells in your hand. Do 3-5 sets of 10 in front of a mirror. Mix in raising your hands to the sky with a 15-20lb dumbells.



In this case, yes, I will sometimes be to 2 in my head before I start my count.

Well there surely was a dumb bell doing the counting in the OP.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Agree to disagree on this one. I don't think in situations where there was a lot going on around the ball at the time of a change of possession that a coach is paying attention to when your arm motion started. They are usually focused on the action surrounding the ball. In the case of 5-second counts, the official and the ball-handler are the primary focus. In fact, I don't think a coach is ever focused on the number of strokes to 10 seconds. I've never received any grief for a 10-second violation, but half the time 5-second calls will get some kind of moaning and groaning, no matter how right the call is.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I coached for 8 years; 6 before I refereed. You're 100% wrong. Not all, but many coaches know exactly what the counting mechanic is, and how many times you've swung your arm.

Doesn't matter. The mechanic is to show your count. Just do the mechanic and be done with it.

I missed the part where I said coaches don't know the mechanic. As I said, I have never had a problem with my 10-second counts being questioned by coaches; or observers, evaluators, and supervisors for that matter.

There's a big difference between the first 1-2 seconds of a backcourt count and the first 1-2 seconds of a 5-second closely guarded count.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

There's a big difference between the first 1-2 seconds of a backcourt count and the first 1-2 seconds of a 5-second closely guarded count.

I'll do the math: 10%-20%, versus 20%-40%.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're supposed to have a horn after 5 seconds, but if you don't have that horn, can you call the T anyway?

Of course you can. I just had this come up not too long ago. The horn didn't blow at 5 and I had to instruct the timer to sound it at about 7 or 8 seconds....ended up having a T for not having a substitute. The rule is the coach gets 20 seconds to think about who to put in the game, not 15 seconds after the warning horn.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Of course you can. I just had this come up not too long ago. The horn didn't blow at 5 and I had to instruct the timer to sound it at about 7 or 8 seconds....ended up having a T for not having a substitute. The rule is the coach gets 20 seconds to think about who to put in the game, not 15 seconds after the warning horn.

You're right, I can see how what I said may have been confusing. By rule, you can call the 5 second count even if you've done it all in your head. By mechanic, though, you'd better have a visible count.