Why you don't do a 5 second count in your head

[MJT]

In my freshmen game last night, while trying to avenge our only loss of the year to our bitter rivals, we had a tough call go against us. We are tied and I call a TO with 21 seconds to go. I drew up our play and told my asst. that we have a TO left if we get in trouble or might have a 5 second count. My PG is dribbling and breaking in and out to interrupt a possible count. I am watching the trail official and he starts to count as we go into our play with 10 seconds left. He gets to "2" and blows his whistle and calls 5 seconds. I yell how you just started counting, and was only at 2. Well, we did win in OT, but later I talked to the other official whom I know about the game. He said, "I didn't question him, but said how they didn't like your 5 second count." His reply was, "ya, I had the first three seconds mentally, and only counted out the last two visually." After my blood pressure returned to normal, I said "please tell him why he cannot do that. Coaches will watch for the count in that situation and call a TO if they are getting close to 5."

I, as the varsity assistant, will tell our guards "no count, no count," and then "count started" when we are in that situation in a varsity game. They use me as a reference of if they need to start their dribble, pick it up, or pass the ball. So please, do not do part of a 5 count in your head at the end of a quarter especially!!!

[JugglingReferee]

I agree.

The official that made that this call was wrong, for exactly the reason you stated: coaches watch for this visual count and help their team out with it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Indianaref]

Not a tough call, it's a bad call. The official was incorrect in not showing his count. The ball handler and coaches need the officials to have a visible count, so they know where they stand. Fortunately, you guys did win the game.

[beachbum]

Depending on an officials count is risky at best. officials are taught not to signal the number they are at, only that they are counting. In a close game the officials should have their hand moving during a 5 second count, but may count the first one before they move their hand, so you as a coach should be ready for that.

Many times the officials will be over 5 seconds when the call is made anyways.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by beachbum

Depending on an officials count is risky at best. officials are taught not to signal the number they are at, only that they are counting. In a close game the officials should have their hand moving during a 5 second count, but may count the first one before they move their hand, so you as a coach should be ready for that.

Many times the officials will be over 5 seconds when the call is made anyways.

Nonsense. I swing my arm five times EVERY TIME and ALL officials should do that, for the reasons listed above. If the arm doesn't swing for the first count, it didn't (and shouldn't) have happened.

[beachbum]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Nonsense. I swing my arm five times EVERY TIME and ALL officials should do that, for the reasons listed above. If the arm doesn't swing for the first count, it didn't (and shouldn't) have happened.

I didn't that is how I do it!!!! I always count just like you do. But there are many officials that count like that. So it is not nonsense. I responded in way to say that you can not depend on every official following the rules.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by beachbum

Depending on an officials count is risky at best. officials are taught not to signal the number they are at, only that they are counting. In a close game the officials should have their hand moving during a 5 second count, but may count the first one before they move their hand, so you as a coach should be ready for that.

Many times the officials will be over 5 seconds when the call is made anyways.

Such poor officiating practice that is. In fact, the officials should ALWAYS have their hand moving, exactly like RichMSN said.

If I am covering a play, and I miss a beat, then that player effectively gets a 6-count, rather than only a visible 4-count. It also tells me that I need to re-focus and pay more attention.

That's exactly what happened to the T in the OP: he lost focus for at least three seconds.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by MJT

After my blood pressure returned to normal, I said "please tell him why he cannot do that. Coaches will watch for the count in that situation and call a TO if they are getting close to 5."

You have a valid gripe. I believe the Fed would agree in that they added a signal last year (signal 12 on the chart) to clarify if a closely-guarded count has ended. They obviously mean for officials to convey closely guarded information visually for the benefit of all parties.

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

You have a valid gripe. I believe the Fed would agree in that they added a signal last year (signal 12 on the chart) to clarify if a closely-guarded count has ended. They obviously mean for officials to convey closely guarded information visually for the benefit of all parties.

Yes, and that signal is also used if you want to clarify that there is no closely guarded situation yet, especially when you hear someone screaming 5 seconds, and they not close enough yet. I use it as a tool to stop the screaming mamie so I can have a clear head to count with!

[chartrusepengui]

When I first started officiating - an older official tried to teach me to do a 5 second count - out was 1, in was 2, out = 3, in = 4, out = 5, in = whistle. Only guy I ever saw do that and no - I never did.

[Fritz]

My closely guarded 5 sec mechanic actually is 4 arm swings on the premise that there are a lot of 1 sec CG instances, so that first sec is in my head and then I start the arm on 2.

For those that say they do an arm on the first second, don't you find your arms in motion a lot then? I originally tried it that way and had a senior partner tell me to stop it and just count 1 in my head and then signal. Before that, my arms were getting tired from constantly being in motion.

[beachbum]

Originally Posted by Fritz

My closely guarded 5 sec mechanic actually is 4 arm swings on the premise that there are a lot of 1 sec CG instances, so that first sec is in my head and then I start the arm on 2.

For those that say they do an arm on the first second, don't you find your arms in motion a lot then? I originally tried it that way and had a senior partner tell me to stop it and just count 1 in my head and then signal. Before that, my arms were getting tired from constantly being in motion.

SEE RICHMSN, there are many officials that do the mechanics different from the exact interpretation of the rules. My statement simply put, was " don't depend on the officials for the arm count, it is risky at best"

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Fritz

My closely guarded 5 sec mechanic actually is 4 arm swings on the premise that there are a lot of 1 sec CG instances, so that first sec is in my head and then I start the arm on 2.

For those that say they do an arm on the first second, don't you find your arms in motion a lot then? I originally tried it that way and had a senior partner tell me to stop it and just count 1 in my head and then signal. Before that, my arms were getting tired from constantly being in motion.

I think Fritz has something worth discussing here -- when it pertains to a 10-second count. If you're L and there's a shot and a rebound, you better be watching for contact, traveling, etc. -- so that it's almost natural that a second or two elapses after B does in fact secure the rebound and start back down court -- and your arm isn't flapping yet. Or is it consensus that B just gets that extra front-end tick or two before the count starts?

Or am I just getting too slow-reflexed in my old age?

[beachbum]

Without discussing what an officials should do, as per the rules book. any coach that depends on what an official is doing or counting is "risky at best". If all officials adheired to the rules book, then coaches could expect that 5 swings of the arm is 5 seconds.

I just think that many officials have varied techniques, that are not by the rules, especially in mid school games, and they should not be depended on

[Adam]

Originally Posted by beachbum

Without discussing what an officials should do, as per the rules book. any coach that depends on what an official is doing or counting is "risky at best". If all officials adheired to the rules book, then coaches could expect that 5 swings of the arm is 5 seconds.

I just think that many officials have varied techniques, that are not by the rules, especially in mid school games, and they should not be depended on

While you're right, it still does not absolve the officials of the responsibility to do it right. It's sort of like the 20 second substitution clock. You're supposed to have a horn after 5 seconds, but if you don't have that horn, can you call the T anyway?