Introducing myself...

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Welcome to the forum! Glad to have you and the point of view that you will bring. (Plus your obvious sense of humor. )

Two thoughts:
1. The official might be trying to get another look or a better look at the player's number. I know that I have called fouls and then needed to confirm the number before I reported because the jersey was twisted or the body was turned in such a way that I couldn't clearly see the number when making the call.

2. In the spirit of your comment about coaches not knowing the rules very well and you coming to understand that, please let me tell you that you are incorrect about your pet-peeve travel. The officials making this call are right.

4-44-5 . . . A player holding the ball:
a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.

I don't want to come off as pesky & annoying right away. I've seen what you guys can do to some poor hapless numb skull who might wander in and start popping off in the threads. So I'm gonna be careful here while still remaining true to my instincts.

Two Longer Than Necessary Responses:
1. Yes, I know what that looks like. I've done it myself, albeit as a poorly trained volunteer. But I do recall having to pause and look closer, or deviate from directly toward the table so I can see the players number clearly. This is different. He knows the #, and he's walking away from the player toward the table. I've seen him whack a kid while walking away to report & the kid was distgusted with herself because we emphasize not fouling, it was a stupid foul at a bad time, and she was mad. Not at the call, at her mistake. She wanted to punch herself in the nose. Instead she balled up her fists, stomped one foot and made a loud grunt sound. She was walking toward the bench and she was looking at the floor when she did this. Can you guess what this piece of refereeing did to this kid? Now she was reeeeal hurt and that leads to more anger. In hind sight, I should of sat her down & let her cool off. But she was my best on-ball defender (no surprise there, eh?) it was late and I needed her. Several posessions later, she goes into a corner to retrieve an OOB ball. Instead of softly tossing it to MrT, or at least making sure he was looking, she baseball passes it at his head from maybe 35' away, with at least 100% more velocity than required to travel that distance. He like, somehow spidey sensed it, ducked it, and TWEEET! She was gone. I agree with the second one. No way she can do that. But it all started because MrT went looking for it. Basketball is an emotional game for the players, sometimes they will express dissapointment that has little or nothing to do with a call - good or bad. And he doesn't seem to understand that. But he's the only official I've ever encountered like that. He actually has a good reputation on the boys side and doesn't work many girls games. As I mentioned, 3 out of 4 times he's managed to make a little girl cry. I think maybe he's got a problem with girls.

2. I used to run this play where the guard would run with the ball and slide into the elbow area on her stomach while holding it out in front of herself, then bounce it once real hard so it would go up and in. Sorry, that was bad. Don't want to destroy my already likely dubious first impression. I was referring to:
b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

Like I said, I coach JV girls at the D4 level, happens all the time. Not nearly as often as all the held balls, but a lot.

Thanks for welcoming me to the site here. I really think this place is cool. I have a couple b-ball coaches sites I like. But over the years I've never really found a good one that has a lot of activity like here. I don't know if you realize what you have here. You guys got it going on in here. It's very difficult to find a thread board community that has such a high number of witty, smart and creative characters as registered members. Real hard! So I appreciate this place.

And I've been reading a while. I even have some understanding of the culture in here- who is likely to urinate on my post first, who always has good advice, who seems to go off wild haired once in a while, who keeps posting even though once in a while it's evident many wish they would go away, etc. So if it seems like I'm just a little too big fer my britches sometimes, urinate on my post, and I'll simmer down, and you'll know why I act like this isn't my first rodeo.

[Nevadaref]

1. I'll have to accept your accounting of Mr. T at face value as you have seen him in action and I have not. I have certainly seen officials get offended or become emotional during games. It isn't a positive. The official has to be the calmest person in the gym at all times.

2. If you were talking about a player first going to the floor AND THEN gaining control of the ball, then I agree with you, and also get annoyed when my partners deem any twisting or turning by this player to be a travel. As you have noted it is only a travel to roll over or to attempt to get up. However, you wrote, "a player hits the floor with ball in possession" which is definitely a traveling violation if the contact with the floor was with other than a hand or foot. Perhaps you didn't phrase that in the proper manner to convey your desired meaning.

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. I'll have to accept your accounting of Mr. T at face value as you have seen him in action and I have not. I have certainly seen officials get offended or become emotional during games. It isn't a positive. The official has to be the calmest person in the gym at all times.

2. If you were talking about a player first going to the floor AND THEN gaining control of the ball, then I agree with you, and also get annoyed when my partners deem any twisting or turning by this player to be a travel. As you have noted it is only a travel to roll over or to attempt to get up. However, you wrote, "a player hits the floor with ball in possession" which is definitely a traveling violation if the contact with the floor was with other than a hand or foot. Perhaps you didn't phrase that in the proper manner to convey your desired meaning.

1. Isn't this what everyone essentially must do in here- "... have to accept your accounting of ______ at face value as you have seen him in action and I have not." What I mean is that there's a lot of descriptions of out of control antics in here on the part of coaches, and it's accepted at face value. While it's true there's no comparison, many coaches go too far, and the vast majority of Ref's just make the call and don't go looking for trouble; but I accept your observations of coaches at face value and it's really no different.

The example I gave was a rather easy observation to make. I'll give you one more example- Player commits her 5th foul and is upset because now she's DQ'd. As she reaches the bench (still barely on the court), she reaches inside the sides of her shorts a couple inches and very quickly in one motion she untucks her jersey with an upward jerk, then pulls it down over her shorts. Because he's rubber-necking to watch her as he approaches the table, he sees this and decides to take it personally and he T's her up. She didn't remove her jersey. SHe didn't show any skin. Did she appear to do it with attitude? Yep, because she's a competitor and now she couldn't play anymore, she was angry.

Pure speculation, but it seems he just doesn't get it. And he wants girls to act a certain way, and when they don't he assumes it must be about him.

2. You're right, I completely flubbed that description. What I described the 1st time was traveling.

[cardinalfan]

bbcoach7, good to hear from you.

I agree with you on the guy who watches the kids after calling a foul. Early in my career, I did the same thing. Other than an outburst, I've learned to trust my partners to handle a kid who disagrees with a call.

And for what it's worth, I hate to see kids pull their shirt out on the way to the bench on their 5th foul, but I don't think it is worthy of a T as long as they aren't disputing the call. Pulling the shirt up is a different story.
I once issued a T for a kid who pulled his shirt off and threw it toward the bench. The coach came over and said, "Sorry, he saw Dennis Rodman do that and didn't know it was illegal."

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by cardinalfan

i once issued a t for a kid who pulled his shirt off and threw it toward the bench. The coach came over and said, "sorry, he saw dennis rodman do that and didn't know it was illegal."

lol!!!!!!!

[Scooby]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. I'll have to accept your accounting of Mr. T at face value as you have seen him in action and I have not. I have certainly seen officials get offended or become emotional during games. It isn't a positive. The official has to be the calmest person in the gym at all times.

2. If you were talking about a player first going to the floor AND THEN gaining control of the ball, then I agree with you, and also get annoyed when my partners deem any twisting or turning by this player to be a travel. As you have noted it is only a travel to roll over or to attempt to get up. However, you wrote, "a player hits the floor with ball in possession" which is definitely a traveling violation if the contact with the floor was with other than a hand or foot. Perhaps you didn't phrase that in the proper manner to convey your desired meaning.

Can't a player roll over from his stomach to his back?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scooby

Can't a player roll over from his stomach to his back?

Yes, but he will be called for a travelling violation.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, but he will be called for a travelling violation.

Scooby and here is the Case Book example -

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2. If you were talking about a player first going to the floor AND THEN gaining control of the ball, then I agree with you, and also get annoyed when my partners deem any twisting or turning by this player to be a travel. As you have noted it is only a travel to roll over or to attempt to get up. [/COLOR][/COLOR]

A little extra clarity here, please, because I was told by a partner a few weeks ago that I blew a traveling call on something like this. Amazingly, one of the coaches agreed with him at the time. But I digress.

He said if a player controls while on the ground and his legs are, say, extended in front of himself while sitting up, the player can't rock back and forth (i.e. cheek-to-cheek) while looking from side-to-side for an open teammate. He wasn't going anywhere and he didn't flip from back to front. While I was awaiting further development, partner activated the Fox 40.

What's the interp here? If I was wrong, great, I learned something. But Nevada, you seem to have given me retro-insight here, unless I read you wrong.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Amesman

He said if a player controls while on the ground and his legs are, say, extended in front of himself while sitting up, the player can't rock back and forth (i.e. cheek-to-cheek) while looking from side-to-side for an open teammate.

Had he already established a pivot cheek?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Amesman

He said if a player controls while on the ground and his legs are, say, extended in front of himself while sitting up, the player can't rock back and forth (i.e. cheek-to-cheek) while looking from side-to-side for an open teammate. He wasn't going anywhere and he didn't flip from back to front. While I was awaiting further development, partner activated the Fox 40.

He didn't move from the spot or attempt to get up. No violation.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by just another ref

He didn't move from the spot or attempt to get up. No violation.

Nope. Technically, I guess he was moving AT the spot (i.e. rocking side to side) but he didn't go anywhere.

He was switching his pivot-cheek, Mark. (I know, it sounds like a violation of some sort, beyond basketball, at least ...)

[TrojanHorse]

I regards to the 1st post, I had a kid get a T this year for bouncing the ball to hard after a Traveling call. Kid picked up his dribble, and well his momentum carried him forward. Everyone in the gym saw it, no big deal, other than the kid was mad at himself. He dribbled the ball hard to himself..Looked no different than a power dribble from a post player. The ball got up to his chest, he caught it, looked at the referee and was getting ready to had the ball over when he hit his whistle. The explanation i got was that they told the captains that they would no tolerate bouncing the ball like that. Oh well, we live and we learn.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Amesman

He said if a player controls while on the ground and his legs are, say, extended in front of himself while sitting up, the player can't rock back and forth (i.e. cheek-to-cheek) while looking from side-to-side for an open teammate. He wasn't going anywhere and he didn't flip from back to front. While I was awaiting further development, partner activated the Fox 40.

Amesman,
If I were you, I, too, would still be *awaiting for further development*.
Good call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mick

Amesman,
If I were you, I, too, would still be *awaiting for further development*.
Good call.

For the record, I concur with mick.