Introducing myself...

[Nevadaref]

1. I'll have to accept your accounting of Mr. T at face value as you have seen him in action and I have not. I have certainly seen officials get offended or become emotional during games. It isn't a positive. The official has to be the calmest person in the gym at all times.

2. If you were talking about a player first going to the floor AND THEN gaining control of the ball, then I agree with you, and also get annoyed when my partners deem any twisting or turning by this player to be a travel. As you have noted it is only a travel to roll over or to attempt to get up. However, you wrote, "a player hits the floor with ball in possession" which is definitely a traveling violation if the contact with the floor was with other than a hand or foot. Perhaps you didn't phrase that in the proper manner to convey your desired meaning.

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. I'll have to accept your accounting of Mr. T at face value as you have seen him in action and I have not. I have certainly seen officials get offended or become emotional during games. It isn't a positive. The official has to be the calmest person in the gym at all times.

2. If you were talking about a player first going to the floor AND THEN gaining control of the ball, then I agree with you, and also get annoyed when my partners deem any twisting or turning by this player to be a travel. As you have noted it is only a travel to roll over or to attempt to get up. However, you wrote, "a player hits the floor with ball in possession" which is definitely a traveling violation if the contact with the floor was with other than a hand or foot. Perhaps you didn't phrase that in the proper manner to convey your desired meaning.

1. Isn't this what everyone essentially must do in here- "... have to accept your accounting of ______ at face value as you have seen him in action and I have not." What I mean is that there's a lot of descriptions of out of control antics in here on the part of coaches, and it's accepted at face value. While it's true there's no comparison, many coaches go too far, and the vast majority of Ref's just make the call and don't go looking for trouble; but I accept your observations of coaches at face value and it's really no different.

The example I gave was a rather easy observation to make. I'll give you one more example- Player commits her 5th foul and is upset because now she's DQ'd. As she reaches the bench (still barely on the court), she reaches inside the sides of her shorts a couple inches and very quickly in one motion she untucks her jersey with an upward jerk, then pulls it down over her shorts. Because he's rubber-necking to watch her as he approaches the table, he sees this and decides to take it personally and he T's her up. She didn't remove her jersey. SHe didn't show any skin. Did she appear to do it with attitude? Yep, because she's a competitor and now she couldn't play anymore, she was angry.

Pure speculation, but it seems he just doesn't get it. And he wants girls to act a certain way, and when they don't he assumes it must be about him.

2. You're right, I completely flubbed that description. What I described the 1st time was traveling.

[cardinalfan]

bbcoach7, good to hear from you.

I agree with you on the guy who watches the kids after calling a foul. Early in my career, I did the same thing. Other than an outburst, I've learned to trust my partners to handle a kid who disagrees with a call.

And for what it's worth, I hate to see kids pull their shirt out on the way to the bench on their 5th foul, but I don't think it is worthy of a T as long as they aren't disputing the call. Pulling the shirt up is a different story.
I once issued a T for a kid who pulled his shirt off and threw it toward the bench. The coach came over and said, "Sorry, he saw Dennis Rodman do that and didn't know it was illegal."

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by cardinalfan

i once issued a t for a kid who pulled his shirt off and threw it toward the bench. The coach came over and said, "sorry, he saw dennis rodman do that and didn't know it was illegal."

lol!!!!!!!

[Scooby]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. I'll have to accept your accounting of Mr. T at face value as you have seen him in action and I have not. I have certainly seen officials get offended or become emotional during games. It isn't a positive. The official has to be the calmest person in the gym at all times.

2. If you were talking about a player first going to the floor AND THEN gaining control of the ball, then I agree with you, and also get annoyed when my partners deem any twisting or turning by this player to be a travel. As you have noted it is only a travel to roll over or to attempt to get up. However, you wrote, "a player hits the floor with ball in possession" which is definitely a traveling violation if the contact with the floor was with other than a hand or foot. Perhaps you didn't phrase that in the proper manner to convey your desired meaning.

Can't a player roll over from his stomach to his back?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scooby

Can't a player roll over from his stomach to his back?

Yes, but he will be called for a travelling violation.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, but he will be called for a travelling violation.

Scooby and here is the Case Book example -

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2. If you were talking about a player first going to the floor AND THEN gaining control of the ball, then I agree with you, and also get annoyed when my partners deem any twisting or turning by this player to be a travel. As you have noted it is only a travel to roll over or to attempt to get up. [/COLOR][/COLOR]

A little extra clarity here, please, because I was told by a partner a few weeks ago that I blew a traveling call on something like this. Amazingly, one of the coaches agreed with him at the time. But I digress.

He said if a player controls while on the ground and his legs are, say, extended in front of himself while sitting up, the player can't rock back and forth (i.e. cheek-to-cheek) while looking from side-to-side for an open teammate. He wasn't going anywhere and he didn't flip from back to front. While I was awaiting further development, partner activated the Fox 40.

What's the interp here? If I was wrong, great, I learned something. But Nevada, you seem to have given me retro-insight here, unless I read you wrong.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Amesman

He said if a player controls while on the ground and his legs are, say, extended in front of himself while sitting up, the player can't rock back and forth (i.e. cheek-to-cheek) while looking from side-to-side for an open teammate.

Had he already established a pivot cheek?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Amesman

He said if a player controls while on the ground and his legs are, say, extended in front of himself while sitting up, the player can't rock back and forth (i.e. cheek-to-cheek) while looking from side-to-side for an open teammate. He wasn't going anywhere and he didn't flip from back to front. While I was awaiting further development, partner activated the Fox 40.

He didn't move from the spot or attempt to get up. No violation.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by just another ref

He didn't move from the spot or attempt to get up. No violation.

Nope. Technically, I guess he was moving AT the spot (i.e. rocking side to side) but he didn't go anywhere.

He was switching his pivot-cheek, Mark. (I know, it sounds like a violation of some sort, beyond basketball, at least ...)

[TrojanHorse]

I regards to the 1st post, I had a kid get a T this year for bouncing the ball to hard after a Traveling call. Kid picked up his dribble, and well his momentum carried him forward. Everyone in the gym saw it, no big deal, other than the kid was mad at himself. He dribbled the ball hard to himself..Looked no different than a power dribble from a post player. The ball got up to his chest, he caught it, looked at the referee and was getting ready to had the ball over when he hit his whistle. The explanation i got was that they told the captains that they would no tolerate bouncing the ball like that. Oh well, we live and we learn.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Amesman

He said if a player controls while on the ground and his legs are, say, extended in front of himself while sitting up, the player can't rock back and forth (i.e. cheek-to-cheek) while looking from side-to-side for an open teammate. He wasn't going anywhere and he didn't flip from back to front. While I was awaiting further development, partner activated the Fox 40.

Amesman,
If I were you, I, too, would still be *awaiting for further development*.
Good call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mick

Amesman,
If I were you, I, too, would still be *awaiting for further development*.
Good call.

For the record, I concur with mick.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Amesman

He said if a player controls while on the ground and his legs are, say, extended in front of himself while sitting up, the player can't rock back and forth (i.e. cheek-to-cheek) while looking from side-to-side for an open teammate. He wasn't going anywhere and he didn't flip from back to front. While I was awaiting further development, partner activated the Fox 40.

Had a similar situation like this in a boys JV game last night. It was kinda weird as the player was sitting there, legs extended for what seemed like an extended period of time looking for someplace to go with the ball. My partner and I held our whistles. The player eventually got rid of the ball.....but, the pass was stolen and we went the other way.