Legal question

[sj]

Would an official have any potential legal liability if he allows a player to remain in the game in spite of that player having reached 5 fouls? For example after she should have been out of the game she then fouls an opponent hard and the opponent would get hurt.

Here's a long story as short as I can make it. 9th grade girls team only has 5 players. One girl is very big with no playing sense at all. She'll foul a shooter by just bringing her arms down on top of the shooter and as a result will just knock the shooter silly. Talking to her does no good. I called what I thought was the 5th foul on her but the scorer said 4. So I thought maybe I could be wrong. When I called the next one the scorer still told me 4. I knew I was right so I made her leave. (I didn't know but the coach and the scorer had agreed to try to keep her in the game.)

Later I told the coach if we kept her in after getting 5 fouls and she knocked someone down and go their head cracked open then there could be legal issues involved. (This girl would be perfectly capable of it too) I try to be a common sense guy but am I right here or am I worrying too much? Thanks.

[Adam]

Tell your scorer to knock it off. If he says one word at this point, he gets replaced. Sit her down. I can see potential issues, especially if she'd demonstrated rough play all game (purposeful or not).

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by sj

(I didn't know but the coach and the scorer had agreed to try to keep her in the game.)

I hope you reported these clowns. IANAL, but it would seem to me that if that was the case and something happened, they would be liable. I would love to see this on Judge Judy.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I would love to see this on Judge Judy.

Judy - Coach you're an idiot
Coach - Well, we just tried...
Judy - I'm speaking!!!!


Gotta love her!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by sj

Would an official have any potential legal liability if he allows a player to remain in the game in spite of that player having reached 5 fouls? For example after she should have been out of the game she then fouls an opponent hard and the opponent would get hurt.

Here's a long story as short as I can make it. 9th grade girls team only has 5 players. One girl is very big with no playing sense at all. She'll foul a shooter by just bringing her arms down on top of the shooter and as a result will just knock the shooter silly. Talking to her does no good. I called what I thought was the 5th foul on her but the scorer said 4. So I thought maybe I could be wrong. When I called the next one the scorer still told me 4. I knew I was right so I made her leave. (I didn't know but the coach and the scorer had agreed to try to keep her in the game.)

Later I told the coach if we kept her in after getting 5 fouls and she knocked someone down and go their head cracked open then there could be legal issues involved. (This girl would be perfectly capable of it too) I try to be a common sense guy but am I right here or am I worrying too much? Thanks.

No, you're not worrying too much. Good job on sending the girl off after you knew it was her 5th. And good job on telling the coach exactly how it is.

And yes, shame on the coach and scorer for contravening the purpose of ethics. I feel for the scorekeeper if s/he is a young person. They could have had their judgment questioned by a position of authority.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

No, you're not worrying too much. Good job on sending the girl off after you knew it was her 5th. And good job on telling the coach exactly how it is.

And yes, shame on the coach and scorer for contravening the purpose of ethics. I feel for the scorekeeper if s/he is a young person. They could have had their judgment questioned by a position of authority.

I think if I knew that the coach intentionally conspired to keep his player in the game like this, that would be the end of his night...ESPECIALLY if this was a young person that the coach manipulated...how/when did you find out that the coach was doing this intentionally?

[sj]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

I think if I knew that the coach intentionally conspired to keep his player in the game like this, that would be the end of his night...ESPECIALLY if this was a young person that the coach manipulated...how/when did you find out that the coach was doing this intentionally?

After the game. And the opposing coach didn't know although he didn't care either. I might add that the coach was less than impressed with my legal acumen. : > )

[cardinalfan]

Originally Posted by sj

One girl is very big with no playing sense at all.

My favorite part of the story!

[sj]

Originally Posted by cardinalfan

My favorite part of the story!

Trying to be brief. And yet believe it or not I was kind with this statement.

[jearef]

You are not worrying too much about liability. The law would require you to act as a reasonable person under the circumstances. Here is my cross of you in the lawsuit:

Mr. Official, you observed this player for 3 quarters, did you not?

And how would you describe her ability?

Did it seem to you that she was a bit out of control?

I believe you used the phrase "knock them silly" in describing some of her previous fouls?

So, in your experience, she was a player with less than average ability who presented a higher-than-average risk of injury to other players?

And yet you allowed her to remain in the game after the rules said she should have been disqualified?

Case over. You lose.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jearef

You are not worrying too much about liability. The law would require you to act as a reasonable person under the circumstances. Here is my cross of you in the lawsuit:

Mr. Official, you observed this player for 3 quarters, did you not?

And how would you describe her ability?

Did it seem to you that she was a bit out of control?

I believe you used the phrase "knock them silly" in describing some of her previous fouls?

So, in your experience, she was a player with less than average ability who presented a higher-than-average risk of injury to other players?

And yet you allowed her to remain in the game after the rules said she should have been disqualified?

Case over. You lose.

Judging a player's ability or the risk of injury based on that ability is not part of an official's job.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by jearef

You are not worrying too much about liability. The law would require you to act as a reasonable person under the circumstances. Here is my cross of you in the lawsuit:

Mr. Official, you observed this player for 3 quarters, did you not?

And how would you describe her ability?

Did it seem to you that she was a bit out of control?

I believe you used the phrase "knock them silly" in describing some of her previous fouls?

So, in your experience, she was a player with less than average ability who presented a higher-than-average risk of injury to other players?

And yet you allowed her to remain in the game after the rules said she should have been disqualified?

Case over. You lose.

I'm not a lawyer, but "reasonable person under the circumstances" can take on a lot of different meanings....why is it so unreasonable in the course of a basketball game that a player who consistently commits hard (but not flagrant) fouls would be allowed to stay in the game as long as you as an official are under the impression that she has not reached her 5 fouls towards DQ? There are players who commit hard fouls playing at every level of basketball, what is so unreasonable about letting that player continue to play? It's not like she was walking down the street whacking people in the head knocking them silly...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jearef

And yet you allowed her to remain in the game after the rules said she should have been disqualified?

Case over. You lose.

"You'll need to talk to the official scorer, I was told she only had 4 fouls. I don't count them, I just call them."

[ranjo]

For what its worth -

I once worked a rec league where players were allowed back into the game after 5 fouls (if there were no other players on the bench), but each additional foul also cost them a technical.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jearef

1. So, in your experience, she was a player with less than average ability who presented a higher-than-average risk of injury to other players?

2. And yet you allowed her to remain in the game after the rules said she should have been disqualified?

Case over. You lose.

1. Yes

2. No, the rules do not require disqualifying players with less than average ability who present higher-than-average risk.

Redirect:

A. Did the scorekeeper inform you that this player had just 4 fouls when in fact she had 5?

B. Did you have any reason to doubt the scorekeeper's information?

C. Would any experienced official have done exactly as you did under the circumstances?


Case over. You win.