Another Legal or Illegal Question

18U ASA College Showcase. Definitely a had to be there play, but will try my best english to explain.


Pitcher takes position on pitcher's plate with gloved hand (left hand) covering hand with ball (right hand). As PU, it appears both hands are together. She then "separates", swings both arms upward, then brings both hands together above her head, brings both arms down, then separates and starts her pitching windup. (Hopefully, you can get a somewhat good visual from this). I call IP.

Coach comes out of dugout, asking why I called an IP. Tell coach that the pitcher cannot bring her hands together twice. He (and pitcher also) tell me that she did not have her hands together the first time.

Question #1: Is this a legal or illegal pitch? Please explain your answer (and references would be even greater).

Question #2: Can BU make this call if they have the angle to see the separation?

Await your responses.

Serg

[bkbjones]

6-1-D says the hands have to be separated. Separated, IMHO, means APART...CLEARLY APART. Gloved hand covering hand with ball would indicate to me that they are NOT separate...and that would be illegal. Also to consider: Is she trying to deceive? (Probably...in baseball this would be soooo easy, we'd just call a balk.) Is she gaining an advantage?

Can the BU make this call? Yes. Should the BU make this call? Probably not.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Serg, it is an illegal pitch because what YOU saw is illegal, and that was your judgment. This isn't a rules reference or question, it is about what you saw. And, there is no discussion on your judgment.

Pitcher (and manager) needs to understand that the plate umpire makes that call, and must use a pitching motion which is legal from your perspective. We cannot and should not ignore apparantly illegal pitches because the pitcher or manager claim what you can't see is different. That pitcher needs to adjust to allow the plate umpire to see separation; or expect umpires to rule accordingly.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by VaASAump
18U ASA College Showcase. Definitely a had to be there play, but will try my best english to explain.

Boy, we're in trouble now!

I'm in on the IP call. What did your partner say?

[Andy]

Originally posted by VaASAump


Pitcher takes position on pitcher's plate with gloved hand (left hand) covering hand with ball (right hand). As PU, it appears both hands are together.

Good enough for me...she steps onto the pitchers plate as described, with hands appearing to be together, I've got an illegal pitch.

[Mountaineer]

I must concur that if she steps onto the pitcher's plate with hands together you have an IP. If they appear to be together to you - then that's all that matters. I also think this is YOUR call (PU) since that is clearly in your line of sight.

The coach and player may not like your call but I am sure they will correct the problem. I would also add that if you are going to bang her for the IP that you should do it early rather than in the 3rd or 4th inning.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
Serg, it is an illegal pitch because what YOU saw is illegal, and that was your judgment. This isn't a rules reference or question, it is about what you saw. And, there is no discussion on your judgment.

Pitcher (and manager) needs to understand that the plate umpire makes that call, and must use a pitching motion which is legal from your perspective. We cannot and should not ignore apparantly illegal pitches because the pitcher or manager claim what you can't see is different. That pitcher needs to adjust to allow the plate umpire to see separation; or expect umpires to rule accordingly.

BTW, Steve, sorry to hear about Metro Atlanta.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Thanks, Mike. We obviosuly pissed off someone, as we were clearly treated differently than less viable associations who were allowed to remain independent.

I'm guessing Tucson is my last official appearance. Will look for you there.

[whaddayouknow]

"Pitcher takes position on pitcher's plate with gloved hand (left hand) covering hand with ball (right hand)."

Pitching hand is at her right side and gloved hand is across the front of her body hiding/covering the ball? Is there something about that in the preliminary pitching position, her arms have to be at her side.

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Boy, we're in trouble now!

I'm in on the IP call. What did your partner say?

Actually, my partner was a different issue. Before I could say anything to him, he was already yelling at me from the "C" slot that the pitchers hands were separated. Which, just added fuel to the fire.

And, I banged the pitcher from the get go. As a matter of fact, coach's reply (stop me if you've heard this before) was: "She's been pitching like that all year, and you wait til now to call that an illegal pitch?" My reply: "Coach, I waited until now because I hadn't seen her, or the rest of your team, until now." Then he asked me what did I want him to do; "Change pitchers or what??" My reply: "I'm an umpire, not a coach. That's your job!" He didn't like that answer.

Serg

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
Thanks, Mike. We obviosuly pissed off someone, as we were clearly treated differently than less viable associations who were allowed to remain independent.

I'm guessing Tucson is my last official appearance. Will look for you there.

I'll be there, but the numbers will be combined, so I assume GA will get a bump in representation. Maybe you can fall into that slot.

Don't feel singled out. The ASA has been trying to reduce the number of Metros for a couple of years now. You will see more fall by next year. This was probably predicated by the loss of Graybill.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Yeah, I know that is the trend, but we were singled out. They kept Portland #69 (957 teams and 116 umpires) independent from Oregon #53 (1346 teams and 230 umpires). They kept Florida First Coast (#77) independent with 764 teams and 94 umpires. Both actions taken the same meeting as our review.

But, they felt the need to merge Atlanta #29 (2199 teams and 753 umpires) with Georgia #18 (2910 teams and 840 umpires) in a test the Code calls about viability. Our temporary commissioner is a very methodical former government employee who is an attorney and a CPA, so paperwork isn't the issue.

With that as comparables, we were singled out for some reason.

Personally I think the boys in South Ga. want to control everything and while Graybill was here he blocked them from doing it. They got their shot and took full advantage. They have a lot of pull down there.

[CecilOne]

Back to the unhijacked topic:
"As PU, it appears both hands are together. She then "separates", swings both arms upward, then brings both hands together above her head, brings both arms down, then separates and starts her pitching windup. (Hopefully, you can get a somewhat good visual from this). I call IP."Good call and thank you for having the sense and courage to call it.
I think it's pertinent that some rules, like joining the hands and only joining once, exist to reduce deception of the batter, whose view is the same as the PU. So if it deceives the PU, it would seem to deceive the batter, illegally.


p.s. Have you found a hit man for your partner?

[outathm]

I'm glad Mike jumped on the Serg and english reference, so I didn't have to. I was there with him and it was hard to understand him saying it to me, let alone reading it.