NOT a Correctable Error, BUT should it be???

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Well philosophically, that makes sense, but in practice, I'm afraid it would just be a huge mess.

I mean, you've got refs out there that can't even keep the rules straight about who gets possession at the beginning of eACH quarter, and you expect them to think this one through properly?

And it's philosophically different from all the other CE's, so it's one more "exception" to try to remember. I agree with your theory, but I think it would just be too much of a strain to put it into practice this way.

Juulie,
The ONLY thing that I am attempting to do is EXTEND THE TIME we can FIX an OFFICIAL'S OBVIOUS MISTAKE when awarding a throw-in. Currently, we can already FIX the MISTAKE UNTIL the throw-in ends. I am merely extending the time.

The problem is not an inablity to "keep the rules straight about who gets possession at the beginning of each quarter", it is a simple MISTAKE that officials make on a fairly regular basis.

The error can ONLY be corrected until a change in possession or the ball becomes dead (i.e. If the correction has not been made before the ball becomes dead or a change in possession, the error is ignored).

This means that if you did not stop play BEFORE a basket, a foul or a violation, the error is ignored. I understand that this will not correct all of these Wrong-Team-Throw-ins, BUT it would likely catch about 80-90% or more. I know more than one official who has made a correction to match my proposed rules already.

Typically, I have seen coaches VERY upset when the mistake is NOT corrected. Similarly, I have yet to see a coach argue "Hey, you can't correct that, the throw-in has already ended."

What do you do if a PLAYER makes this mistake (i.e. A1 makes a Free Throw and A2 then grabs the ball and inbounds the ball)? If A2 is able to get to the ball quickly enough and inbound to A1, are you going to allow the play to continue if A1 touches the inbound pass before you blow the whistle?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

The problem is not an inablity to "keep the rules straight about who gets possession at the beginning of each quarter", it is a simple MISTAKE that officials make on a fairly regular basis.

A fairly regular basis? I'm in my 7th year of officiating and can't recall every having made this error. Less than a half-dozen times have I disagreed with the way the arrow was pointing on the table, and we fixed those.

I agree with those who state "simple is better," and for the one or two times this ever happens to you, you simply shrug and go on...

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

A fairly regular basis? I'm in my 7th year of officiating and can't recall every having made this error. Less than a half-dozen times have I disagreed with the way the arrow was pointing on the table, and we fixed those.

I agree with those who state "simple is better," and for the one or two times this ever happens to you, you simply shrug and go on...

jdw,
I have seen it many times over my 30+ years of coaching and officiating (and playing). How many times? If you have had fewer than one mistaken error per YEAR for the past seven years, you are quite blessed. Outside of varsity games, I frequently have to keep track of the possession arrow myself.

How often have I seen the wrong team inbounding the ball? Well, I can comfortably say far, far more often than I have seen a Correctable Error Procedure employed. But, the point should not be that it doesn't happen very often, so let's not worry about it. It should be that it does happen every once in a great while (for you), and we can easily have a rule in place that allows us to fix the error.

Look at some of the cases in the case book. Think those all happen on a regular basis? Once again, they are there because they happened at least once and the NFHS wants the play called fairly.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Juulie,
What do you do if a PLAYER makes this mistake (i.e. A1 makes a Free Throw and A2 then grabs the ball and inbounds the ball)? If A2 is able to get to the ball quickly enough and inbound to A1, are you going to allow the play to continue if A1 touches the inbound pass before you blow the whistle?

I'm going to apply the case in 10.something called "A specific unsporting act" (or something like that).

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm going to apply the case in 10.something called "A specific unsporting act" (or something like that).

Bob,
As usual, spot-on: 10.1.8.
A SPECIFIC UNSPORTING ACT
*10.1.8 SITUATION: Immediately following a goal or free throw by Team A, A1
inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 subsequently throws the ball through A's basket.
RULING: The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next throw-in begins: (a) charge Team A with an unsporting technical foul; (b) assess a delay-of-game warning for interfering with the ball after a goal; (c) cancel the field goal; (d) cancel any common foul(s) committed and any non-flagrant foul against A2 in the act of shooting; and (e) put "consumed" time back on the clock.
COMMENT: If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, the entire procedure would be followed except no unsporting team technical foul would be charged. A team technical would be assessed if the team had received a previous delay warning. This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball. (4-47-3; 10-1-5d)

This situation basically wipes out the MISTAKE by Team A if there is no doubt that the throw-in was the result of confusion. In this case, even if the situation is not recognized until after the fact: cancel the field goal, cancel non-flagrant fouls, AND put time back on the clock.

To be consistent, it may be wise to modify the rule to be the same for an official's mistake as it is for a player's mistake. Since we already have to know this rule, it would seem that it would be easier for us to know that for any throw-in, if the wrong team takes it -- regardless who made the mistake -- we can fix it.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Juulie,
The ONLY thing that I am attempting to do is EXTEND THE TIME we can FIX an OFFICIAL'S OBVIOUS MISTAKE when awarding a throw-in. Currently, we can already FIX the MISTAKE UNTIL the throw-in ends. I am merely extending the time.

I understand exactly what you're trying to do, and I agree it would be nice. I wish we could do that, too. I'm just disagreeing with how you want to do it.

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

The problem is not an inablity to "keep the rules straight about who gets possession at the beginning of each quarter", it is a simple MISTAKE that officials make on a fairly regular basis.

Actually, I've only done it twice in 10 years, and I'm sure there are refs who've worked 25 years without ever making this mistake. It's a simple mistake, and also very, very easy to avoid.

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

The error can ONLY be corrected until a change in possession or the ball becomes dead (i.e. If the correction has not been made before the ball becomes dead or a change in possession, the error is ignored).

This means that if you did not stop play BEFORE a basket, a foul or a violation, the error is ignored.

I understand what you're trying to say here, but trying to define it in the book in a way that could be consistently put into practice, and that would make sense to everyone would be nearly impossible, I think. I just think that however reasonable you and I are, others may not be quite so capable

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I understand that this will not correct all of these Wrong-Team-Throw-ins, BUT it would likely catch about 80-90% or more. I know more than one official who has made a correction to match my proposed rules already.

Well, he can keep making that correction, or he can plan to move up and get better. I recommend he work to avoid the problem instead.