NOT a Correctable Error, BUT should it be???

[CMHCoachNRef]

I have seen several circumstances over the past several years in which either the arrow was wrong or the official simply made a mistake on a throw-in by giving the ball to the wrong team.

Case 7.5.2A indicates that the error cannot be corrected once the throw-in ends:
THROW-IN BY WRONG TEAM BY MISTAKE
*7.5.2 SITUATION A: Team A is awarded a throw-in near the division line. The
administering official by mistake, puts the ball at B1' disposal. B1 completes the throw-in and Team B subsequently scores a goal. RULING: No correction can be made for the mistake by the official after the throw-in ends.

Yes, we all know that better communication with our partners should prevent this from happening, but I have seen it happen. Fortunately, we have always caught it BEFORE the throw-in has ended in our games, but I have seen it in other games.

My question is, why hasn't the NFHS extended the time of correction from the time the throw-in ends to any time during the wrongly awarded possession? The officiating crew can make the mistake -- AND FIX IT -- up until the throw-in ends. It would seem to me that giving the officials that extra time would eliminate a good percentage of these errors.

Thoughts???

[Nevadaref]

What do you do with any game action which occurred following the mistaken throw-in, but before the recognition of the error? Does it count? Does it get wiped away? Does the clock reset? How would you correct a past throw-in from the POI? All other CEs use the POI for the resumption of play.

My opinion is that there are too many variables, and that is why this isn't a CE, but rather is simply considered an official's mistake.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What do you do with any game action which occurred following the mistaken throw-in, but before the recognition of the error? Does it count? Does it get wiped away? Does the clock reset? How would you correct a past throw-in from the POI? All other CEs use the POI for the resumption of play.

My opinion is that there are too many variables, and that is why this isn't a CE, but rather is simply considered an official's mistake.

Nevadaref,
Keep in mind, I am suggesting that the error can only be corrected UNTIL there is a possession change. Generally, these errors are caught as the player is dribbling in the wrong direction at the start of a quarter or as soon as one of the partners realizes they are in the wrong position based on direction of the dribbler upon receipt of an inbounds pass.

Therefore, I would propose that the error could only be corrected until the ball becomes dead (shot made, foul, violation, etc.) or until the other team secured the ball. It would be treated as all other correctable errors in that nothing would be wiped out. There would be no resumption of play based on a POI since the only correction is change of team possession and play.

In essence, I am merely proposing that we extend the time that we can correct our blunder to "during the first possession while the ball is live" from "until the throw-in ends." I have seen many officials do this in practice, anyway.

[Adam]

I could see extending this one to correctable until either a change in possession or the first dead ball.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

THROW-IN BY WRONG TEAM BY MISTAKE

My question is, why hasn't the NFHS extended the time of correction from the time the throw-in ends to any time during the wrongly awarded possession? The officiating crew can make the mistake -- AND FIX IT -- up until the throw-in ends. It would seem to me that giving the officials that extra time would eliminate a good percentage of these errors.

Thoughts???

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I could see extending this one to correctable until either a change in possession or the first dead ball.

If I had a vote, I would in the positive for a change on this type of play every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Thinking out loud here:

If the wrong team is awarded the throw-in, and the ball is legally inbounded, then there is an incorrect possession at this point. The way I see it, here are the possible future events:

The team Incorrectly with possession (team I) will either:

• score (S)
• retain/lose possession from an offensive/defensive rebound (OR/DR)
• retain/lose possession from an offensive/defensive foul (OF/DF)
• retain/lose possession from an offensive/defensive violation (OV/DV)
• lose possession due to a defensive steal (DS)
• or have possession when the error is discovered and none of the above will have occured (NIL)

If (NIL), then stop the game, and award possession the Correct team. The clock will be incorrect, and C might need those seconds, especially in a late-game situation.

If the error is discovered in cases of DR, OF, or OV, or DS then C now has correct possession, but again, with lost time.

In the case of S, C loses time and there's an argument for I not keeping the points.

If the case of OR or DV, then we can revert to the NIL case and C loses time again.

In the case of DF, C loses time and there's an argument for C not being charged with the foul, and perhaps bonus points because of the foul.

How far do we go back? There could in fact be repeated DVs (OOB for example), where the only effect is the time on the clock, but C should still be entitled to the ball.

[jdmara]

I understand where you are going but most would go as far to say that the currently CE procedures are not "fair" anyways. If an official makes a mistake, they make a mistake. Move on and the game continues. I remember someone on this board saying, "Well coach, the good news is that you get two out of the next three alternating possession arrows ". I don't see this error very often, to be honest. There is no need to make the CE ruling any more complicated.

-Josh

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I understand where you are going but most would go as far to say that the currently CE procedures are not "fair" anyways. If an official makes a mistake, they make a mistake. Move on and the game continues. I remember someone on this board saying, "Well coach, the good news is that you get two out of the next three alternating possession arrows ". I don't see this error very often, to be honest. There is no need to make the CE ruling any more complicated.

-Josh

The CE rules are complicated?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

The CE rules are complicated?

They aren't complicated for me but obviously coaches find them complicated because they have a mini stroke whenever I've seen them applied (Knock on wood I've only had one in the games I've ever done). The grip is always, "that's not fair"

-Josh

[Juulie Downs]

I might agree with the OP, but I can see some problems -- if the first dead ball is because of a foul on a shot, well, does the foul count or not? Does the shot count or not? Does the correctable period of time end BEFORE those things? That's awkward!!

It's enough different of a situation from the other types of correctable errors, that I think it would add a LOT of complications to the CE rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

I might agree with the OP, but I can see some problems -- if the first dead ball is because of a foul on a shot, well, does the foul count or not? Does the shot count or not? Does the correctable period of time end BEFORE those things? That's awkward!!

It's enough different of a situation from the other types of correctable errors, that I think it would add a LOT of complications to the CE rule.

I would say, if implemented, the horn must sound and play must be stopped before any violation or foul by either team.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I would say, if implemented, the horn must sound and play must be stopped before any violation or foul by either team.

Well philosophically, that makes sense, but in practice, I'm afraid it would just be a huge mess.

I mean, you've got refs out there that can't even keep the rules straight about who gets possession at the beginning of eACH quarter, and you expect them to think this one through properly?

And it's philosophically different from all the other CE's, so it's one more "exception" to try to remember. I agree with your theory, but I think it would just be too much of a strain to put it into practice this way.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jdmara

The gripe is always, "that's not fair"

"Coach, the rules define fairness."

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Well philosophically, that makes sense, but in practice, I'm afraid it would just be a huge mess.

I mean, you've got refs out there that can't even keep the rules straight about who gets possession at the beginning of eACH quarter, and you expect them to think this one through properly?

And it's philosophically different from all the other CE's, so it's one more "exception" to try to remember. I agree with your theory, but I think it would just be too much of a strain to put it into practice this way.

Juulie,
The ONLY thing that I am attempting to do is EXTEND THE TIME we can FIX an OFFICIAL'S OBVIOUS MISTAKE when awarding a throw-in. Currently, we can already FIX the MISTAKE UNTIL the throw-in ends. I am merely extending the time.

The problem is not an inablity to "keep the rules straight about who gets possession at the beginning of each quarter", it is a simple MISTAKE that officials make on a fairly regular basis.

The error can ONLY be corrected until a change in possession or the ball becomes dead (i.e. If the correction has not been made before the ball becomes dead or a change in possession, the error is ignored).

This means that if you did not stop play BEFORE a basket, a foul or a violation, the error is ignored. I understand that this will not correct all of these Wrong-Team-Throw-ins, BUT it would likely catch about 80-90% or more. I know more than one official who has made a correction to match my proposed rules already.

Typically, I have seen coaches VERY upset when the mistake is NOT corrected. Similarly, I have yet to see a coach argue "Hey, you can't correct that, the throw-in has already ended."

What do you do if a PLAYER makes this mistake (i.e. A1 makes a Free Throw and A2 then grabs the ball and inbounds the ball)? If A2 is able to get to the ball quickly enough and inbound to A1, are you going to allow the play to continue if A1 touches the inbound pass before you blow the whistle?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

The problem is not an inablity to "keep the rules straight about who gets possession at the beginning of each quarter", it is a simple MISTAKE that officials make on a fairly regular basis.

A fairly regular basis? I'm in my 7th year of officiating and can't recall every having made this error. Less than a half-dozen times have I disagreed with the way the arrow was pointing on the table, and we fixed those.

I agree with those who state "simple is better," and for the one or two times this ever happens to you, you simply shrug and go on...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Juulie,
What do you do if a PLAYER makes this mistake (i.e. A1 makes a Free Throw and A2 then grabs the ball and inbounds the ball)? If A2 is able to get to the ball quickly enough and inbound to A1, are you going to allow the play to continue if A1 touches the inbound pass before you blow the whistle?

I'm going to apply the case in 10.something called "A specific unsporting act" (or something like that).