Tech foul is also a personal foul?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

1. In most instances would you not violate (crossing the boundary) before committing the Tech?

2. Is there still a provision for an offensive violation for your arm crossing the boundary while making throw in?

1) In NO instances would you call a violation first before calling a "T" for touching the ball while it's being held out-of-bounds by the thrower. There is one penalty only for the act described.

2) There NEVER was a provision for an offensive violation for the thrower's arm crossing a boundary line during a throw-in. EVER!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 10-1-5-B: Team Technical: Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play. See 7-5-1 and 8-1-2 for the resumption-of-play procedure to use after a time-out or the intermission between quarters. The procedure is used prior to charging a technical foul in these specific situations.

NFHS 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

Nevadaref: If a player delays the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play", how do you differentiate a team technical from a player technical? The wording seems very similar in both rules, almost exactly the same? I'm confused, as usual.

What are the four warnings? What are the Team T's in 10-1-5c, d, e, f?

See any correlation?

[LeeBallanfant]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) In NO instances would you call a violation first before calling a "T" for touching the ball while it's being held out-of-bounds by the thrower. There is one penalty only for the act described.

2) There NEVER was a provision for an offensive violation for the thrower's arm crossing a boundary line during a throw-in. EVER!

For item #2 above, since no violation, what happens when thrower-in while faking a throw-in has his arm cross boundary and touches the hands or body of the defensive person who has a legal position (nothing crossing boundary).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What are the four warnings? What are the Team T's in 10-1-5c, d, e, f ? See any correlation?

Four delay warnings are for:
1) Free throw huddle.
2) Defender crossing plane of boundary line during a throwin.
3) Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.
4) Failure to have court ready after timeout (water on court).

bob jenkins: I'm still confused about 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play. Is delaying the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play" always a team technical, or can it be a player technical, and how do you tell the difference. If it's always a team technical, why the need for 10-3-5-A? Sorry, but I'm still confused.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

For item #2 above, since no violation, what happens when thrower-in while faking a throw-in has his arm cross boundary and touches the hands or body of the defensive person who has a legal position (nothing crossing boundary).

What happens? Play on.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Four delay warnings are for:
1) Free throw huddle.
2) Defender crossing plane of boundary line during a throwin.
3) Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.
4) Failure to have court ready after timeout (water on court).

bob jenkins: I'm still confused about 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play. Is delaying the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play" always a team technical, or can it be a player technical, and how do you tell the difference. If it's always a team technical, why the need for 10-3-5-A? Sorry, but I'm still confused.

BillyMac:

The two plays that I see when "Delaying the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play"...

are, for example, when a player hits the ball after a made basket. I have one of the four DOG warnings.

...the other delay, for example, is when a player might not give the official the ball when requested. There I have a player T.

Both are delays...but, each have different consequences to the player.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Four delay warnings are for:
1) Free throw huddle.
2) Defender crossing plane of boundary line during a throwin.
3) Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.
4) Failure to have court ready after timeout (water on court).

It was a rhetorical question.

bob jenkins: I'm still confused about 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play. Is delaying the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play" always a team technical, or can it be a player technical, and how do you tell the difference. If it's always a team technical, why the need for 10-3-5-A? Sorry, but I'm still confused.

It can be a Team T (if the "entire" team is causing the delay) or a player T (if only one player is causing the delay) and applies to delays other than those that get a warning.

Look -- sometimes s*** happens. So, the rules committee decided that when certain, relatively common, and sometimes accidental things happen, the team should be given a pass the first time. Those 4 things get warnings.

Other delays get a T.

Prior to last year (?), it would / could / should have been a T for spilling water during a TO (and not having it cleaned up, etc.). That would have been penalized under 10-1-5a. Now, its part of the warnings.

Here's one possibility of a player T under 10-3-5A: Player A1 takes a "legal guarding position" in front of player B1 who is trying to move to become the inbounder. Player A1 continues to move and "block" B1 frome getting to the inbounds spot, and refuses to stop after the official asks tghe player to stop.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

The two plays that I see when "Delaying the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play"...are, for example, when a player hits the ball after a made basket. I have one of the four DOG warnings....the other delay, for example, is when a player might not give the official the ball when requested. There I have a player T. Both are delays...but, each have different consequences to the player.

Good examples. Thanks. But the language in the two rules is so similar, almost exactly the same. That's what still confuses me.

[LeeBallanfant]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What happens? Play on.

Ok, lets take it one step further, defensive player legally slaps ball out of hands of thrower-in who has had his arm cross the boundary line.

My interpretation of the above (when thrower in touches legally positioned defensive player) would be a throw in violation for failure to throw the ball directly into the court.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

Ok, lets take it one step further, defensive player legally slaps ball out of hands of thrower-in who has had his arm cross the boundary line.

My interpretation of the above (when thrower in touches legally positioned defensive player) would be a throw in violation for failure to throw the ball directly into the court.

The defense knocks it out? Where does it go? If it goes in bounds, play on. If it goes out of bounds, give the ball back to A (assuming B was the last to touch.)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

Ok, lets take it one step further, defensive player legally slaps ball out of hands of thrower-in who has had his arm cross the boundary line.

My interpretation of the above (when thrower in touches legally positioned defensive player) would be a throw in violation for failure to throw the ball directly into the court.

Your interpretation is incorrect.

Please take a look at 9-2-10 Note:
"The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area before the ball is released on the throw-in pass. The opponent in this situation may legally touch or grasp the ball."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Four delay warnings are for:
1) Free throw huddle.
2) Defender crossing plane of boundary line during a throwin.
3) Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play. Interfere with the ball following a goal.
4) Failure to have court ready after timeout (water on court).

bob jenkins: I'm still confused about 10-3-5-A: Player Technical: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play. Is delaying the game by "preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play" always a team technical, or can it be a player technical, and how do you tell the difference. If it's always a team technical, why the need for 10-3-5-A? Sorry, but I'm still confused.

Billy,
First, you have one of the DOG warnings incorrect.
Secondly, there are provisions in the rules book to cover non-DOG situations in which either a team or a player delays the game. These situations have nothing at all to do with the DOG warnings. Furthermore, it is generally clear whether to penalize the individual player or the entire team.
Here are a few examples:
a. Player fails to be in the semi-circle to attempt the FTs when the official is ready to administer.
b. Player fails to give the ball to the nearest official following a whistle, such as after a foul or violation.
c. A team fails to return to the court in a timely manner after the halftime intermission (stays in the locker room) and delays the restart of the game by a full minute.
d. A team fails to have two players occupy the two marked lane spaces nearest the basket during an opponent's FT attempt and the RPP is not in effect.