Coach Citing the Foul Counts

[Smitty]

Yeah I know what it means, but thanks so much.

And you just proved my point - it sounds like a word someone would use to try to express that they are more intelligent than the other person. Just my humble opinion. I'm sure yours will differ.

[SmokeEater]

Yes Smitty we hear you and are cognizant of how you feel!

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Yes Smitty we hear you and are cognizant of how you feel!

Touche...

Originally Posted by Smitty

Yeah I know what it means, but thanks so much.

And you just proved my point - it sounds like a word someone would use to try to express that they are more intelligent than the other person. Just my humble opinion. I'm sure yours will differ.

I didn't know it was that big of a deal. I'm sure they would rather me say that instead of "Look you whiney b&%ch I know what the count is, I called them."

BTW, did you have something to contribute to the OP or is nit-picking your MO?

[Smitty]

I was contributing by suggesting that 'cognizant' was a poor choice of words.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

[ref2coach]

Last Tue, BV coach stood up waved his arms, "where's the foul"? Coming up court as trail table side, I say "coach please put your arms down, stop gesticulating" he looks at me all confused "ges-what"? I smile at him and say "we would appreciate better sportsmanship" coach. Rest of game he did not say anything regarding calls.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I'm cognizant of that fact, sir/ma'am... is there a question?

Originally Posted by Smitty

That just seems like a very odd word to use when jogging past a coach...

Sh!t, that's perfect when jogging past a coach. It throws them off guard and they can't come up with a quick reply. And perfectly illustrated by ref2coach's post.

[pizanno]

I recently had this exchange:

Coach: "Your last four fouls have been against us"

Me: "Are you asking me to ignore fouls that I see?"

Coach: "I'm just wondering why all your fouls are against us?"

Me: "Believe it or not, I don't keep track. Just call them as they come"

Coach: "Fair enough"

This wasn't one of my "stock" responses, but since I was familiar with the coach, I felt I had some latittude and that's what came out of my mouth. Thought I might try it on another coach, but wondered if it sounded "smart*ss"?.

Stock responses include:

"I hear you coach"
"We'll look at it coach"
"Do you have a question, coach?"

[rockchalk jhawk]

Originally Posted by walter

A great reply I got from a college supervisor this year at camp was "Coach, I don't count 'em, I just call 'em".

Interesting... I read this thread and then I was poking around on the SI website and somehow ended up looking at this page.

I saw this:
•Earl Strom, NBA referee, to Philadelphia Trainer Al Domenico, who complained that Strom was assessing too many fouls against the 76ers in a game with Denver: "I don't count 'em, Al. I just call 'em."

According to that page, it was printed in the February 14, 1977 issue of SI. Apparently that quote's been around a while. It's always neat to me when you can see where/who pearls of wisdom like that come from. And then you laugh when you hear some grizzled old veteran claim something like that as their own.

Nah you're good, it takes a lot more than a beating around the BUSH-type critique from a BEAVERton resident to hurt my feelings.

I'm just used to dealing with adults who say what they mean & mean what they say...

Originally Posted by Smitty

Do you really use the word 'cognizant'?

Originally Posted by Smitty

That just seems like a very odd word to use when jogging past a coach...

Originally Posted by Smitty

Yeah I know what it means, but thanks so much.

And you just proved my point - it sounds like a word someone would use to try to express that they are more intelligent than the other person. Just my humble opinion. I'm sure yours will differ.

Originally Posted by Smitty

I was contributing by suggesting that 'cognizant' was a poor choice of words.

Took all of those posts to say it was a poor choice of words
Reminds me of how my child attempts to set-up something through a series of questions.

I doubt that I will change what works for me because of your opinion but I appreciate your efforts.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Spence

First year ref.

I know in general we do not respond to comments.

How far do I let a coach go with giving me the foul totals per team as in "my team has a lot and the other team doesn't have many? Do I simply not comment?

My inclination is to let it go but I'm curious as to how others handle it.

Spence,
As a long time coach, this is one of the most absurd arguments a coach can make. The other related comments include the dreaded, "come on ref, call it both ways" -- when doing soccer I have been known to blow my whistle and point in BOTH directions at the same time (this only works for seasoned old-timers as it could result in a real mess, if you are not careful).

I think that it is a mistake to completely ignore the coach -- this will infuriate him even more. I will frequently make a comment that my partners and I are calling the fouls that we see. I will then ask, "Are you seeing anything SPECIFIC that you would like us to watch for out here?"

The answer to this one can go in a number of directions. If they indicate that you are missing everything that they are doing and seeing everything that we are doing, you know you have a biased-view coach and the only thing you can do is indicate that you are doing your best to see the actions of both teams.

On the other hand, in many cases, they will give you a specific -- my guards are getting bumped on the perimeter, my posts are getting moved out of the post, my guys are getting bumped on rebounds, or my gals are getting hit on shots. Now, you have something specific. You can respond, "OK coach, I will keep an eye out for that for you" or "OK, my partner and I will talk about that during the next break or at the end of the quarter" or "we will be watching for that AT BOTH ENDS."

In many cases, the coaches simply want to feel as though the officials are being fair, that the officials care and that they are willing to listen -- at least a little.

You don't need a lengthy discussion. You don't have to have a discussion with a coach three times every quarter. At the same time, if the foul count is very imbalanced, it is always good to be able to provide some (albeit short) explanation.

[Jeff Sarratt]

if he asks a question... I am aware of the count. I understand.
If he comments... say nothing.
If you know him well... "Mike you are pressing and they are in a zone."

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Jeff Sarratt

If you know him well... "Mike you are pressing and they are in a zone."

Jeff,
Even if you don't know the coach particularly well, this line can be used. In some cases, when the coach thinks about it, he realizes that is a major reason for the difference.

I find this comment to be far less antagonitic than some smarta$$ comment like "well, tell your team to stop fouling!"

It is short. It is accurate (assuming they really are in a zone and he is pressing). It also justifies to some degree why the foul counts are not even.

[stmaryrams]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Spence:

... I told him with a straight face: "Tell them to stop fouling." His lower jaw hit the floor ...

MTD, Sr.

I had a similar discussion with a coach a few years back. I said the same thing to the coach and during his time out he tells the players "you've got to stop fouling!" Priceless

Also had the game with two differing styles - One team driving the lane, the other shooting 3 point shots against a packed in zone. Needless to say, the team driving was getting fouled more often. Coach upset and complains. I tell him, coach the other team is just sitting back and you team is grasping at players as they drive to the basket, hence more fouls.

[Berkut]

I've always wondered why the foul count is so special that it lack of balance is somehow indicative of....something?

If the score count isout of whack, does that mean someone isn't doing a good job of calling made baskets?

If one team has 5 travels, and the other only 2, does that mean something is wrong with the travel calls?

If one team gets more rebounds, is that something that the officials should address?

Why are *fouls* the one stat in the game that coaches/players/fans think *ought to be* balanced in some fashion?