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[slow whistle]

Earlier this year I had a situation where team A was murdering team B - final score broke a local scoring record and they won by like 80 pts, but pressed from the opening tip to the final horn. While personally I didn't think much of the team A coach for doing what he was doing, as an official it is/was not my responsibility to alter the way the game was being called...one of my partners on the other hand came in at halftime and was visibly upset with the strategy of team A...he basically said in so many words that every time a team A player breathed on a team B player he was calling a foul...my response at the time was "lets just call our games", but sure enough he proceeded to whistle a foul every time team A even approached a team B player, we were 9-0 on fouls at one point (please refrain from the "why does this matter" routine, it mattered b/c of the way that it happened)...made for a very uncomfortable second half...what would you all have done in this situation?

[dave30]

I really, really wish I could have been working that game!

Once the team was up by 30+ and they continued to press.....every single steal that they made would've been a foul ! I would have sent a message to the coach to stop pressing and if he didn't get the message, then all of his players would foul out!

Also, if they were approaching 100 points and continuing to shoot 3 pters, I guarantee on a few of those, that I would have blown the whistle and signalled, "travelling"...."Coach, she took a couple of baby steps before shooting the ball ! That's travelling! "

I don't think one referee would complain about my "bending the rules" just a little bit!

Well, some of them would, but I wouldn't care!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dave30

Once the team was up by 30+ and they continued to press.....every single steal that they made would've been a foul !

Cheater.

It's not your job (certainly at any level higher than rec programs for kids in grade school) to determine how the team should play. If that becomes an issue, leave it to the league administrators.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by dave30

I really, really wish I could have been working that game!

Once the team was up by 30+ and they continued to press.....every single steal that they made would've been a foul ! I would have sent a message to the coach to stop pressing and if he didn't get the message, then all of his players would foul out!

Also, if they were approaching 100 points and continuing to shoot 3 pters, I guarantee on a few of those, that I would have blown the whistle and signalled, "travelling"...."Coach, she took a couple of baby steps before shooting the ball ! That's travelling! "

I don't think one referee would complain about my "bending the rules" just a little bit!

Well, some of them would, but I wouldn't care!

I would hazard a guess that every good referee would disagree vehemently with you and your "bending the rules" philosophy. Quite simply, it's wrong. It has no place in officiating a game at any level.

Your job is to officiate. Period! Equally, fairly and equitably for BOTH teams. It is NOT your job to judge coaches and players who are playing WITHIN the rules. The problem is a league problem, not an officiating problem.

Real officials don't cheat.

I realize that you don't care. Unfortunately, you don't care about our officiating ethics either.

Sad!

[dave30]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I would hazard a guess that every good referee would disagree vehemently with you and your "bending the rules" philosophy. Quite simply, it's wrong. It has no place in officiating a game at any level.

Your job is to officiate. Period! Equally, fairly and equitably for BOTH teams. It is NOT your job to judge coaches and players who are playing WITHIN the rules. The problem is a league problem, not an officiating problem.

Real officials don't cheat.

I realize that you don't care. Unfortunately, you don't care about our officiating ethics either.

Sad!

It's not cheating. We are here for the kids and that includes some that can't play very well. No one deserves to be embarrassed that way. It's possible to send a message to a coach who won't back off a little bit.

It was not a high-level game. One team was not competitive and they haven't been for four years. Give them a break.

It's easy to be high and mighty and "call it by the book all the time". I guess none of you have ever given a team the benefit of a call when they are down by 40+ points with no hope of ever catching up.

I wish I was as perfect as some of you, but common sense takes priority sometimes.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dave30

It's not cheating. We are here for the kids and that includes some that can't play very well. No one deserves to be embarrassed that way. It's possible to send a message to a coach who won't back off a little bit.

In my experience, the most abominable behavior gets "justified" in terms of being "for the kids." That doesn't wash.

I have no problem with sending a message to the coach. During a dead ball: "Coach, do you really have to keep pressing? C'mon." That's a message.

What you're doing is making up rules, and it is not legitimate. If you really want to effect legitimate change, talk to the league about changing the rule so that the press must be taken off after a X point lead (for some X). Then enforce your new rule.

[dave30]

Of course I wouldn't cheat, but I didn't state my point well enough. I talked to my buddy who is a college official and he kind of gave me some ideas.

He said that you are "within the context of the rule book" to call a foul on any contact that disrupts the rhythm or balance of a player.

Team A is completely dominant. They are able to play through minimal contact with no problem.

Team B simply cannot play. Any contact disrupts their rhythm or balance.

Therefore, unless Team A can play defense and steal the ball every single time with zero contact, then I am within the context of the rules to call a foul on any contact since Team B is unable to play through any minimal contact. All contact puts them at a severe disadvantage. So, a hand of the back, body contact on a steal, however minimal is a Foul.

Team A is able to play through minimal contact without it disrupting their rhythm or balance. In other words, they still are able to do what they want to do and go where they want to go.



Are you guys telling me that you would call the exact same foul against Team B as you would Team A when A is not affected by minimal contact and B is just completely knocked off balance? You would really have Team A shooting double bonus leading 84-0? Team B should get the benefit of calls because any contact at all disrupts anything they are trying to do.

It's called game management and "looking at the big picture". One team is not competitive and staying within the context of the rules, you are still able to call enough fouls to hopefully get the winning coach to back off a little.


Here is another example: If Team B is down 95-0 with a minute or so to play, and they throw the ball in bounds and the dribbler takes a couple of baby steps before dribbling.....and travels slightly.....would you really call travelling in that situation? Or , would you let it go?

The rulebook says.....call the travel.....common sense says to ignore it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dave30

Are you guys telling me that you would call the exact same foul against Team B as you would Team A when A is not affected by minimal contact and B is just completely knocked off balance? You would really have Team A shooting double bonus leading 84-0? Team B should get the benefit of calls because any contact at all disrupts anything they are trying to do.

It's called game management and "looking at the big picture". One team is not competitive and staying within the context of the rules, you are still able to call enough fouls to hopefully get the winning coach to back off a little.

If I have to do that for a team that is down by 84 points and they have 0, then there is a big problem. And for all you know, there might not have been any fouls to call. If you cannot score at least on field goal, I doubt free throws are going to help.

Peace

[grunewar]

The article is a bit long, but has some interesting comments including:

Mary Struckhoff, assistant director of the National Federation of State High School Associations, says 28 states responded to a survey last March and eight reported basketball mercy rules with varying specifics.

These help to hasten the end of such games, Struckhoff says, but are no substitute for coaches acting responsibly. "You can't legislate ethics," she says.

Full article is at: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps...blowouts_N.htm

[just another ref]

On a related note, two nearby crosstown rivals met for the second time this season last night. The first score was 121-33 Last night's game: 77-57

[bigdogrunnin]

Originally Posted by dave30

I really, really wish I could have been working that game!

Once the team was up by 30+ and they continued to press.....every single steal that they made would've been a foul ! I would have sent a message to the coach to stop pressing and if he didn't get the message, then all of his players would foul out!

Also, if they were approaching 100 points and continuing to shoot 3 pters, I guarantee on a few of those, that I would have blown the whistle and signalled, "travelling"...."Coach, she took a couple of baby steps before shooting the ball ! That's travelling! "

I don't think one referee would complain about my "bending the rules" just a little bit!

Well, some of them would, but I wouldn't care!

First, you are THE SINGULAR minority. Second, it is not the responsibility of any official to dictate to any coach how they should/shouldn't coach their team. The job of officials is to fairly and unbiasedly apply the rules of the game to ensure that no one team or player is placed at unfair advantage/disadvantage.

[dave30]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

First, you are THE SINGULAR minority. Second, it is not the responsibility of any official to dictate to any coach how they should/shouldn't coach their team. The job of officials is to fairly and unbiasedly apply the rules of the game to ensure that no one team or player is placed at unfair advantage/disadvantage.

I'm not the singular minority. I've talked to college officials who have said they would do the exact same thing.

First of all, you should realize that this is a TAPPS basketball game played at a lower level than most other TAPPS games. It's not a high level of basketball and one team is not competitive. They don't deserve to be embarrassed like that and it's not bending the rules really to just call a foul when the other team presses. If it's close, it's a foul.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dave30

I really, really wish I could have been working that game!

Once the team was up by 30+ and they continued to press.....every single steal that they made would've been a foul ! I would have sent a message to the coach to stop pressing and if he didn't get the message, then all of his players would foul out!

Also, if they were approaching 100 points and continuing to shoot 3 pters, I guarantee on a few of those, that I would have blown the whistle and signalled, "travelling"...."Coach, she took a couple of baby steps before shooting the ball ! That's travelling! "

I don't think one referee would complain about my "bending the rules" just a little bit!

Well, some of them would, but I wouldn't care!

dave30, I just want to remind you what you wrote. You said that you'd call fouls on steal attempts, suggesting that you'd call a foul even where none occurred. You said that you'd make up traveling calls. You said that you would "bend the rules," meaning fake calls, to send a message.

We said that this is unethical, inappropriate, and tantamount to cheating.

Your latest post concerns an entirely different issue, namely how to call fouls in a blowout. You allude to the standard advantage/disadvantage principle for calling fouls. These points are legitimate, but they do not concern the unethical suggestions you made in your first post in this thread.

In my opinion it would be a grave mistake and reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of officiating to conclude that the fairness of calling fouls differently based on advantage/disadvantage could possibly legitimize the approach outlined in your earlier post.

[dave30]

My first post came out wrong. I just wanted to point out that when a team is severely disadvantaged by any contact that I would give them the benefit of doubt as to whether the contact disrupted their play. And down by 59-0 at the half, I think any contact would be called a foul and at that level, I doubt that the defense is so good that they can steal the ball every time with no contact.

[deecee]

I think what dave30 meant to say, but didn't come close, was that the laws of advantage/disadvantage would be skewed somewhat due to the fact that one team sucked.