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Raymond Wed Jan 14, 2009 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranjo (Post 568421)
From the NFHS Rule Book: 2-6 No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions make by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties.

From the NFHS Officials Manual: 3.5.4 B1 - Crew communication during the contest is essential to a well-officiated game. 3.5.4 B2 - "Help" situations occur when officials either ask for or are offered assistance from their partners. These situations often occur on out-of-bounds plays and/or tipped-ball situations, the timing of a try/tap, and others. These situations should be discussed throughly during the crew's pregame conference.

Thank you Randy. Waiting for the OP to tell us what was pre-gamed by his crew. I know in my crews I say if non-primary official sees an obvious mistake then go ahead and change to a 2 and keep moving. But some crew chiefs might not want it done this way. It needs to be pre-gamed.

rwest Wed Jan 14, 2009 02:09pm

Bob has already answered this...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 568459)
You counted the score.

Your implication of this being a correctable error would put a time limit on when this could be corrected.

The book says that you may correct a scoring or book keeping mistake anytime before the referee aproves the final score.

A scoring or book keeping mistake is an error made by the scorekeeper. That can be corrected at any time during the officials jurisdiction.

The correctable error we are talking about is when an official erroneously counts or disallows points. Remember the correctable errors are for officials setting aside a rule. If one official sees the foot on the line but the other official counts the basket as 3 points the crew as set aside a rule and counted pionts that were not earned. The scorekeeper can not set aside any rules, therefore, any mistakes in scoring made by them can be corrected until the officials jurisdiction ends.

bob jenkins Wed Jan 14, 2009 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 568459)
You counted the score.

Your implication of this being a correctable error would put a time limit on when this could be corrected.

The book says that you may correct a scoring or book keeping mistake anytime before the referee aproves the final score.

See 2.10.1J for both cases.

OHBBREF Wed Jan 14, 2009 02:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwest (Post 568479)
The correctable error we are talking about is when an official erroneously counts or disallows points. Remember the correctable errors are for officials setting aside a rule. If one official sees the foot on the line but the other official counts the basket as 3 points the crew as set aside a rule and counted pionts that were not earned. The scorekeeper can not set aside any rules, therefore, any mistakes in scoring made by them can be corrected until the officials jurisdiction ends.

The OP situation occurs and now if the opponent scores (dead ball) the ball is inbounded (live ball) and comes back down the floor and there is another score (dead ball) the ball is inbounded (live ball) and the ball is lost out of bounds, (dead ball) and team a Calls time out, and the scorer or coach asks if that shot was a two or a three you can not correct it because it is outside the period of the correctable error?

I think not - you can get the score right in this situation, because the score has been recorded in the book it can be corrected to be a two or a three at any time. If it isn't in there you may have another issue, but once they write it down it is the scorer's fault whether it is or it isn't.

AKOFL Wed Jan 14, 2009 02:40pm

You can only fix the score anytime durring the game if the scorekeeper writes down what is not signaled by the official. If he writes down what is signald by the official it needs to be corrected in the alloted amount of time for a correcable error. I think I wrote that right.:)

Amesman Wed Jan 14, 2009 02:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 568494)
You can only fix the score anytime durring the game if the scorekeeper writes down what is not signaled by the official. If he writes down what is signald by the official it needs to be corrected in the alloted amount of time for a correcable error. I think I wrote that right.:)

You've got it.

2-11-11
" ... a bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score ..."

We're not talking bookkeeping here.

Amesman Wed Jan 14, 2009 02:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 568500)
You've got it.

2-11-11
" ... a bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score ..."

We're not talking bookkeeping here.

... and so once again, the scorekeeper, who essentially gets told what to write down, gets the whole stinkin' game to correct a screw-up, and they want us to get it all right basically immediately ... forget about having second thoughts, or fixing a rare foul-up after more than a few exhales.

Bartender!

BLydic Wed Jan 14, 2009 02:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 568438)
Most of us should just do what ever is common in our locations / leagues....

Some mechanics have the "2 to a 3 or 3 to a 2" correction be done immediately by the off official with no discussion. Blow the whistle, inform the table (and everyone else) of the change, get the ball back in play.

This is the preferred mechanic in PIAA land and probably why PIAAREF felt comfortable doing it this way; however, it's always best to include it in the pregame. If the "R" doesn't, I always have a little check list of crew mechanics to cover, including this scenario. Takes about a minute and has a tendency to keep partners from getting peeved and for the crew to look like they are all on the same page.

It is also encouraged locally that as the off-ball official (if you have a chance) take a peek at the feet on a try for 3. Sometimes the calling official is straight lined from seeing both feet.

OHBBREF Wed Jan 14, 2009 03:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 568494)
You can only fix the score anytime durring the game if the scorekeeper writes down what is not signaled by the official. If he writes down what is signald by the official it needs to be corrected in the alloted amount of time for a correcable error. I think I wrote that right.:)

So if it is a 3 - and the T signals 2 and the C signals 3 and the scorer writes down 2 and then all of that other stuf I said in the previous post occurs you can not change it?

I think you are wrong by the intent if not the actual rule, however the most important thing here is that you get the call right, period. If the scorer puts a score in the book and I know it is wrong - I am changing it to what it should be when I get the chance. I am authorized to do so becuase points were put in the book and "the scorer did it wrong".

little off topic.
Now how about the not counting a basket at all?
in this day and age of computerized play by play (not all HS have this)/even most everyone has some radio or webcast going.
last night BV there were four books, two statisticians, I do not think I could have lost a point if I wanted to. There is too much information available for you not to be able to correct a score with fairly accurate knowledge.
This is one they should look at taking out of the correctable error line and just make it right the get the score or they do not.

Amesman Wed Jan 14, 2009 03:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 568505)
So if it is a 3 - and the T signals 2 and the C signals 3 and the scorer writes down 2 and then all of that other stuf I said in the previous post occurs you can not change it?

I think you are wrong by the intent if not the actual rule, however the most important thing here is that you get the call right, period. If the scorer puts a score in the book and I know it is wrong - I am changing it to what it should be when I get the chance. I am authorized to do so becuase points were put in the book and "the scorer did it wrong".

Re-read OP and agree with OH that if two officials signal and the scorekeeper writes something down, one could later argue there's been a bookkeeping mistake, and correct it at any time.

Don't know if I want to be there too often -- dueling indications -- but it does create the opportunity later for wiggle room.

Or as it's been written so many times before, like Bob said.

Jesse James Wed Jan 14, 2009 03:16pm

Last weekend in southern Indiana. Ruled a three to win, 44-43.YouTube - Referee blows call big time

TheOracle Wed Jan 14, 2009 04:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 568471)
Thank you Randy. Waiting for the OP to tell us what was pre-gamed by his crew. I know in my crews I say if non-primary official sees an obvious mistake then go ahead and change to a 2 and keep moving. But some crew chiefs might not want it done this way. It needs to be pre-gamed.

You have to get this right. When you see a 2 vs. 3 mistake, everyone should fix it ASAP.

rwest Wed Jan 14, 2009 04:24pm

So ....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 568492)
The OP situation occurs and now if the opponent scores (dead ball) the ball is inbounded (live ball) and comes back down the floor and there is another score (dead ball) the ball is inbounded (live ball) and the ball is lost out of bounds, (dead ball) and team a Calls time out, and the scorer or coach asks if that shot was a two or a three you can not correct it because it is outside the period of the correctable error?

I think not - you can get the score right in this situation, because the score has been recorded in the book it can be corrected to be a two or a three at any time. If it isn't in there you may have another issue, but once they write it down it is the scorer's fault whether it is or it isn't.

In your opinion, under what set of circumstances can erroneously counting or canceling a score only be corrected in a given amount of time?

Raymond Wed Jan 14, 2009 04:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 568471)
Thank you Randy. Waiting for the OP to tell us what was pre-gamed by his crew. I know in my crews I say if non-primary official sees an obvious mistake then go ahead and change to a 2 and keep moving. But some crew chiefs might not want it done this way. It needs to be pre-gamed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOracle (Post 568574)
You have to get this right. When you see a 2 vs. 3 mistake, everyone should fix it ASAP.

I'm talking about the method which it is done.

Some say whoever sees it fix it on the fly. Some say whoever sees it, blow your whistle to stop play and then correct the call. Others say whoever sees it, blow your whistle and give information to the primary for the primary to change or not change. And some others will say wait til the next dead ball...

It needs to be pre-gamed.

OHBBREF Wed Jan 14, 2009 04:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwest (Post 568593)
In your opinion, under what set of circumstances can erroneously counting or canceling a score only be corrected in a given amount of time?

If you classify a scoring mistake as a correctable error as some have - you would then be limited to the correctable error time period to get the score right.
I however advocate that if the score is wrong the score keep did it and I can correct the score right up until we walk out of the gym and thus approve the score.


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