First for Me
 

Good Morning everyone. Well had a good game last night. I was looking forward to it. Big Schools, Boys Varsity. Good Crowd. Early second quarter I am trail there is a drive from my primary then a quick kickto the wing. On the quick kick (Centers' Primary) There is now a quick shot. The shooter tried to step back for a three but was a foot inside the arch. The only reason I had my eyes over there was because of the drive from my primary. Anyway. Shot goes in. C signals 3. I blow my whistle and signal 2. No complaint from anyone. Shooter doesn't do/say anything, and neither does the coach (who usually complains a lot). At the half the official that I corrected was peeved that I corrected him. He thought he was right. I told him I knew I was right. He is a vet who is a little weak and doesn't like to be told when he does wrong (which is quite often).

What did your crew pre-game about handling that situation?

If it wasn't pre-gamed I would have probably blew the whistle, huddled with the calling official, and then let him change it if he wished.

-Josh

I agree -- no sense in arguing with a partner on the court and just changing his call like this undermines the crew.

If there is ever any question or concern get with your partner and have him change the call. If he persists that he is right let it go and move on. If it were really egrigeous (sp?) you can write your assignor after the game explaining what happened but man up and let your partner know that you will be reporting his screw up.

You did the right thing. Whether you were looking in the right place or not is not the issue, because you weren't. But you made a wrong call right. The film will show that. Good job.

From the NFHS Rule Book: 2-6 No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions make by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties.

From the NFHS Officials Manual: 3.5.4 B1 - Crew communication during the contest is essential to a well-officiated game. 3.5.4 B2 - "Help" situations occur when officials either ask for or are offered assistance from their partners. These situations often occur on out-of-bounds plays and/or tipped-ball situations, the timing of a try/tap, and others. These situations should be discussed throughly during the crew's pregame conference.

Who had the crash on the quick kick (not saying there was one - it's definitely a situation where a pass/crash could happen)?

This play falls under 'Correctable Error'.
I would sound my whistle and briefly discuss the play with 'C' official. He is the one who corrects the call. Once the discussion is completed, then he will inform the coaches and table of the decission.

Are you saying a 2 counted as a 3 can't be fixed after 2 live ball?

If the official signals 2 (or 3) and the book writes it down as such, then this is a CE and must be fixed within the time-frame.

If the official signals a 2 (or 3) and the book writes it down as a 3 (or 2), then this is a scorekeeping error and can be fixed at any time.

Some mechanics have the "2 to a 3 or 3 to a 2" correction be done immediately by the off official with no discussion. Blow the whistle, inform the table (and everyone else) of the change, get the ball back in play.

Some mechanics have the discussion.

It's been argued passionately on this board several times. Most of us should just do what ever is common in our locations / leagues.

Thanks!

tell us which one of the five errors this would fall under please?

(e)

You counted the score.

Your implication of this being a correctable error would put a time limit on when this could be corrected.

The book says that you may correct a scoring or book keeping mistake anytime before the referee aproves the final score.

That's what I thought too.

Always listen to bob (see post 10).

Thank you Randy. Waiting for the OP to tell us what was pre-gamed by his crew. I know in my crews I say if non-primary official sees an obvious mistake then go ahead and change to a 2 and keep moving. But some crew chiefs might not want it done this way. It needs to be pre-gamed.

Bob has already answered this...
 

A scoring or book keeping mistake is an error made by the scorekeeper. That can be corrected at any time during the officials jurisdiction.

The correctable error we are talking about is when an official erroneously counts or disallows points. Remember the correctable errors are for officials setting aside a rule. If one official sees the foot on the line but the other official counts the basket as 3 points the crew as set aside a rule and counted pionts that were not earned. The scorekeeper can not set aside any rules, therefore, any mistakes in scoring made by them can be corrected until the officials jurisdiction ends.

See 2.10.1J for both cases.

The OP situation occurs and now if the opponent scores (dead ball) the ball is inbounded (live ball) and comes back down the floor and there is another score (dead ball) the ball is inbounded (live ball) and the ball is lost out of bounds, (dead ball) and team a Calls time out, and the scorer or coach asks if that shot was a two or a three you can not correct it because it is outside the period of the correctable error?

I think not - you can get the score right in this situation, because the score has been recorded in the book it can be corrected to be a two or a three at any time. If it isn't in there you may have another issue, but once they write it down it is the scorer's fault whether it is or it isn't.

You can only fix the score anytime durring the game if the scorekeeper writes down what is not signaled by the official. If he writes down what is signald by the official it needs to be corrected in the alloted amount of time for a correcable error. I think I wrote that right.:)

You've got it.

2-11-11
" ... a bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score ..."

We're not talking bookkeeping here.

... and so once again, the scorekeeper, who essentially gets told what to write down, gets the whole stinkin' game to correct a screw-up, and they want us to get it all right basically immediately ... forget about having second thoughts, or fixing a rare foul-up after more than a few exhales.

Bartender!

This is the preferred mechanic in PIAA land and probably why PIAAREF felt comfortable doing it this way; however, it's always best to include it in the pregame. If the "R" doesn't, I always have a little check list of crew mechanics to cover, including this scenario. Takes about a minute and has a tendency to keep partners from getting peeved and for the crew to look like they are all on the same page.

It is also encouraged locally that as the off-ball official (if you have a chance) take a peek at the feet on a try for 3. Sometimes the calling official is straight lined from seeing both feet.

So if it is a 3 - and the T signals 2 and the C signals 3 and the scorer writes down 2 and then all of that other stuf I said in the previous post occurs you can not change it?

I think you are wrong by the intent if not the actual rule, however the most important thing here is that you get the call right, period. If the scorer puts a score in the book and I know it is wrong - I am changing it to what it should be when I get the chance. I am authorized to do so becuase points were put in the book and "the scorer did it wrong".

little off topic.
Now how about the not counting a basket at all?
in this day and age of computerized play by play (not all HS have this)/even most everyone has some radio or webcast going.
last night BV there were four books, two statisticians, I do not think I could have lost a point if I wanted to. There is too much information available for you not to be able to correct a score with fairly accurate knowledge.
This is one they should look at taking out of the correctable error line and just make it right the get the score or they do not.

Re-read OP and agree with OH that if two officials signal and the scorekeeper writes something down, one could later argue there's been a bookkeeping mistake, and correct it at any time.

Don't know if I want to be there too often -- dueling indications -- but it does create the opportunity later for wiggle room.

Or as it's been written so many times before, like Bob said.

Last weekend in southern Indiana. Ruled a three to win, 44-43.YouTube - Referee blows call big time

You have to get this right. When you see a 2 vs. 3 mistake, everyone should fix it ASAP.

So ....
 

In your opinion, under what set of circumstances can erroneously counting or canceling a score only be corrected in a given amount of time?

I'm talking about the method which it is done.

Some say whoever sees it fix it on the fly. Some say whoever sees it, blow your whistle to stop play and then correct the call. Others say whoever sees it, blow your whistle and give information to the primary for the primary to change or not change. And some others will say wait til the next dead ball...

It needs to be pre-gamed.

If you classify a scoring mistake as a correctable error as some have - you would then be limited to the correctable error time period to get the score right.
I however advocate that if the score is wrong the score keep did it and I can correct the score right up until we walk out of the gym and thus approve the score.

If you see conflicting signals from your partners, blow it dead and take care of it right away. then you have no need to keep track of live ball, dead ball, and you get it right, right away. Good game management helps you here. Making sure of the points scored and making sure they come up on the board. I know we can't be watching the scoreboard all the time, but we can be watching our partners when a three is going up and throughout the game. I agree with you, we need to get it right and there are provisions for getting it right. Get it right sooner, later is not allowed by rule.

You are only quoting part of the rule
ART. 11 . . . Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul, each charged time-out, and end of each quarter and extra period, notifying the referee at once of any discrepancy. If the mistake cannot be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official scorebook, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise. If the discrepancy is in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee shall accept the progressive team totals of the official scorebook. A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. The scorebook of the home team shall be the official book, unless the referee rules otherwise. The official scorebook shall remain at the scorer's table throughout the game, including all intermissions.

No where in this rule does this refer to time limits or correctable error status it says notify the official when discovered, could be 2 minutes later.

CEs are in 2-10 you are looking under Scorers duties 2-11

OK. If you would like to wait until the end of the quarter or end of game so be it. I would rather take care of it as it happens then there is no memory to be jogged or other sit that will have an effect on "getting it right". Hey partner I had a look at the feet and am sure the foot was on the line, What did you see? End of game. Coach we have a score correction from earlier in the quarter you didn't win we are going to overtime, wrse yet no overtime you lost. Have fun with that.:eek:

Pre-game pre-game pre-game and other have said, and that is true, but you have rebounding responibilities, and contact and other things going on if you are covering your primary as you should that you may not see your partners signal, and be able to fix it now. Your partner might not see you one of the very experience HS partners I worked with last night didn't mirror threes, stuff happens. you can not always stop play right away to correct the score, there could be a breakaway going on. So yes sooner rather than later is prefered. however when you walk over at the quarter and the score and the books do not agree you do have the authority to make the score right - right up until you approve it by leaving the facility.
2-11-11 in prior posting.

I realize that - I am trying to get across the point that you can correct the score anytime that you find an error and you know it is wrong it does not fall under the limitations in 2-10 of the correctable error.

Agree completely - I am just saying that this is not a correctable error it is a scorers mistake that can be crrected anytime you find it. Someone said that the error must be recognized by an official no later than during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started or we could not fix it.
;)

Signalling a three instead of a two falls under 2-10 and is limited on how long you can correct.

Signaling a three and the scorer puts down two falls under 2-11.

Conflicting signals aren't really conflicting signals. There is no signal for "two," only for "three." Therefore, if one signals for "three" and the other merely points to the floor (or puts up two fingers), you only have one valid signal. Correcting this to a two must be done within the time frame allowed for in the rules.

2.10.1 sit j A1 attempts a goal from behind the tree point line: (a) but the covering official fail to give the successful signal after the ball goes through the basket, and the scorer records only two points;or(b) and the covering official gives the successful signal, but the scorer records only two points. Team B inbound the ball and procedes to score. The coach of Team A goes to the table and request a 60 second time out to discuss the error. RULING: in(a) the error of not awarding three points is CORRECTABLE as it was detected prior to the second live ball after the error. The extra point is scored, the time out is not charged and the game continues from the POI. In(b) It is a mistake by the scorer which can be corrected any time until the final score has been approved.

^ Where was this say 20+ posts ago :) Way to go!

Okay I was wrong,

I am still going to blame it on the scorer and get the score right if I have knowledge that it was a three and recorded as a two.

You have to get this right.

I'm with you.

Matter of fact, one of the few things I tell the scorer/timer is that if there's ANY confusion on whether's there's a 2 or 3, I want a horn IMMEDIATELY and we WILL kill the play. I do not want to have to try to remember when the shot happened, etc. and do not want it to be 4 possessions later.

Working a 3-person boys game a few weeks ago, I was the trail and had a 2-point attempt from the corner. After the ball went through, the C unexplicably signaled a made 3 (touchdown). We didn't have to stop the game, though, as I immediately signaled 2 to him and then we both got the table's attention while the ball was still well in the backcourt.

Watching a JV game the other night, I couldn't believe how many 2-point shots (foot clearly on the line) were marked as 3-point attempts. Not that the game was well called in general...

I was trying to avoid having to type that long thing.:p

I agree if....
 

I agree if it is a mistake by the score keeper. However, if it is a mistake by the officiating crew in that they did not correct their scoring mistake, then there is a definite time period and it is not until the jurisdiction of the officials ends.

If you let the wrong team inbounds the ball what are you going to do?

Keep It Simple Snaqwells ...
 

Seems simple enough.

It was there 21 posts ago. ;)

Okay, are you saying that if you signal a three, and your partner knows it should have been a two but doesn't say anything until the quarter break (and well after the 2-10 time period has expired), you're going to correct it anyway and just say it was a scoring error?

If it is a 2, then the one official correctly makes no signal. If this official did not know at the time that his partner signaled the 3, but the question comes up later, then the 2 officials decide it was a 2, I have no problem calling this a scoring error.

But I don't think this is exactly what was suggested above.

Sorry
 

Sorry It took me so long to get back on. Anyway we did go over this in our pregame. We said if we were 110% sure to blow the whistle and do it immidiately without talking about it. I don't think this is one of the things you get together to discuss. (IMO) If you are without a doubt sure about it. You make the call. Something we also discussed that was different in our pregame was if we missed an out of bounds call. We said that in that case we would go to the calling official and offer assistance. We would allow them to change the call.
Thanks for everyones input.

I have a problem with it. It's an officials error (2-10) and needs to be corrected within the time frame prescribed or not at all.

I agree with snaqwells. If it is an officials error then it is a correctable error and needs to be corrected in the timeframe allowed. If it was signaled correctly on the court but the scorekeeper but it in the book wrong the official can correct that anytime until they approve the final score.

Well then, if you did it the way it was discussed in pre-game then your partner shouldn't have had a problem with it.

If one official had the call right, I think that is sufficient grounds to make the correction.

There was (rightfully) no signal. Therefore, there was no call. The scorer did not make an error, the officials did.