Simultaneous charge and block

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A preliminary signal is not binding in any other situation, why should it be here?

The fact that the highest level of officials who operate under this rule do it this way (report the double foul) on national television should be all you need to know about the intent of this particular case play/rule. Especially since there has been more than one example of this, and no statement from the NCAA saying they'd misapplied a rule.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Because the case play says so.

Actually it doesn't. The word signal does not appear in the case play.
But following this line of reasoning, here is a question. Has anyone here ever reported a double foul when only one official made the preliminary block/charge signal and the other went up with just the fist and waited?

You think to yourself: Oh, my gosh! He called what?? Nothing to do but salvage a split.

Or in this case is it acceptable for the official who did not make the signal to provide information to the official that made one (He cleared out with his inside arm, etc.) and allow him to change his call?

[South GA BBall Ref]

Sounds like a situation I was involved in a few years ago in the State Finals. We reported the double foul but went with AP arrow instead of POI (offense with ball)

Welcome GA Official

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by South GA BBall Ref

Sounds like a situation I was involved in a few years ago in the State Finals. We reported the double foul but went with AP arrow instead of POI (offense with ball)

Welcome GA Official

Depending on how many few years ago this was you may have been still correct. This was a rule change for NFHS in 05-06.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Actually it doesn't. The word signal does not appear in the case play.
But following this line of reasoning, here is a question. Has anyone here ever reported a double foul when only one official made the preliminary block/charge signal and the other went up with just the fist and waited?

You think to yourself: Oh, my gosh! He called what?? Nothing to do but salvage a split.

Or in this case is it acceptable for the official who did not make the signal to provide information to the official that made one (He cleared out with his inside arm, etc.) and allow him to change his call?

Allow me to repeat myself.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The fact that the highest level of officials who operate under this rule do it this way (report the double foul) on national television should be all you need to know about the intent of this particular case play/rule. Especially since there has been more than one example of this, and no statement from the NCAA saying they'd misapplied a rule.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The fact that the highest level of officials who operate under this rule do it this way (report the double foul) on national television should be all you need to know about the intent of this particular case play/rule. Especially since there has been more than one example of this, and no statement from the NCAA saying they'd misapplied a rule.

The officials at the highest levels also frequently allow blatant travels, as confirmed by my DVR. Apparently their interpretation of that rule is different from mine, too.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The officials at the highest levels also frequently allow blatant travels, as confirmed by my DVR. Apparently their interpretation of that rule is different from mine, too.

The NCAA has never been shy about announcing when officials have mis-applied a rule. Their silence on these plays speaks volumes.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Allow me to repeat myself.

So you are saying that if you go up with a fist, thinking block, but your partner quickly signals PC, you report a double foul?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So you are saying that if you go up with a fist, thinking block, but your partner quickly signals PC, you report a double foul?

Now you're talking crazy. You know very well the difference.

My point is that the actions of the high level officials, along with the corraborating statements of folks here (some of whom have served in high levels of officiating and rules committees), combined with the NCAA's silence when their officials follow the protocol subscribed to by the majority here, should all make it pretty clear.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Actually it doesn't. The word signal does not appear in the case play.

I'm not playing semantics with you. The case play says one official called a PC and one called a block. Do you actually think they both just raised their fists, didn't signal a prelim, and still reported it as a double foul? That's stupid and you know it. In fact, you even make the point in your post. "So you are saying that if you go up with a fist, thinking block, but your partner quickly signals PC, you report a double foul? "

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Now you're talking crazy. You know very well the difference.

No, I was asking a serious question. You have a double whistle. You are certain it is PC, but correctly make no preliminary signal. Your partner quickly signals block. Do you report a double foul, or yield the call to your partner?

[eyezen]

Once again, here is verbatim the memo issued in mid Dec from the NCAA national coordinator of men's officials that addresses what a blarge is, how to administer it and how to avoid it. Emphasis mine. NFHS rules and mechanics mirror NCAA-m. NCAA-w do not.



December 16th, 2008

BLARGE: Block/Charge Double Foul Call

A drive or move to the basket may result in contact between the offensive and defensive player. While Refereeing the Defense is one of the pillars of basketball officiating, the official must determine if the defensive player has established initial, legal guarding position: two feet on the floor, in bounds, facing the opponent. The defensive player may move to maintain legal guarding position-laterally and backwards, just not forward or obliquely while also maintaining his own vertical plane (POV-Principal of Verticality). If contact does occur, then the basketball official goes to work.

The official must determine if the contact between A and B is illegal, a Charge by A or a Block by B, or incidental contact where no advantage or disadvantage or rough play to either player has resulted from this contact.


This discussion invokes Men's NCAA Rules and CCA Mechanics.


In the CCA Men's Basketball Officiating Manual, 2008-2009, Section 1.1 Block/Charge Calls p. 20 and Section 1.2 Drives to the Basket p. 21, jurisdiction to determine this call is levied upon the Lead official to have primary coverage if the contact occurs within the Free Throw Lane Lines; however, in case of double whistles, the outside official may take this call as he might have the best look.

Hence, there might be an indeterminate time frame where one official may call and signal "Block" while the other official calls and signals "Charge" nearly simultaneously. Hence, a "BLARGE" may result.


A Blarge is a Double Foul and must be processed as such. It would be incorrect to allow one official's call override or set aside the other's. A discussion of the four types of Blarge Double Foul scenarios: Player and Team Control, Team Control and the two examples of this type of double foul following a FGA where there is loss of team control, will be addressed in this essay.

To avoid a Blarge, by convention the Center and Trail officials are schooled to hold their preliminary signals. That is, they might sound their whistle and stop the clock to signal a foul, but do not add the block or charge signal...hesitating to ensure that indeed the Lead has come up with the call as affirmed by instant eye contact between the Lead and outside calling official. In some situations, it might be the outside official (Center or Trail) who takes this play. This mechanic should always be included in the official's Pre-Game Meeting to help ensure excellent communication, cohesiveness and crew dynamics.


Administering a Blarge:

Player Control, dribbling or moving (pivoting) and contact occurs: by rule in any double foul situation, both A is charged with a personal foul and B would be charged with a personal foul. The ball is administered at the Point of Interruption (POI) and would be given back to A at the spot nearest to where the foul was called , with no reset of the shot clock.

Team Control ( an airborne passer, an interrupted dribble play, a throw in, etc.) when player A makes contact with a defender B. Since A is still in Team Control when the double foul was called, again A would retain possession as they are still in Team Control. Under POI , the ball would be put in play at the closest spot to where the foul occurred, with no reset of the shot clock.

After the release of the ball for a FGA and a Blarge occurs, there is loss of Team Control. With no TC, if A's FGA is successful, POI B would entitle B to a throw in from a non-designated spot along the end line.

If the FGA is not successful and a Blarge occurs after the release, since there is no TC, administration of this double foul would call for the Alternating Possession (AP) arrow-POI-- at a designated spot nearest to where the foul occurred, with a reset of the shot clock.

Please refer to the 2009 NCAA Basketball Rule Book: 4.53.1.d for POI, 4-3.3.6 for Team Control and 7-5.8,9 for Double Foul POI indications. Also, please review the 2009 NCAA Basketball Case Book, p. 39 A.R. 95 for Double Foul play administration and pp. 69, 70 A.R. 172 for Blarge specific plays.


Blarge Management Key Points: Have a thorough pre-game. Outside officials hold preliminary signals. Know the various scenarios for double fouls. Work for consistent communication and optimal crew chemistry and dynamics.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am going to get on my soap box once again concerning the dreaded "blarge".

The NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's definitions of guarding and screening a identical (history lesson alert: these definitions go back to the NBCUSC, see Footnote #1). By defnition, it is impossible to have a "blarge". Either B1 (defensive player) has obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA and FIBA) a legal guarding position (LGP) prior to the contact between B1 and A1 (offensive player, with the ball).

Yes, the NFHS and NCAA Men's casebook plays tell us to treat this as a double personal foul while the NCAA Women's CCA Officiating Manual that the primary official takes the call. The NFHS and NCAA Men's caseball plays cannot be defended by rule. The best way to handle this type of play is PRE-GAME, PRE-GAME, PRE-GAME.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So you are saying that if you go up with a fist, thinking block, but your partner quickly signals PC, you report a double foul?

Not me. I'm avoiding calling a blarge if at all possible, so I'm going to defer to my partner if he makes his preliminary signal before I make any preliminary signal, even, if, in my mind, my call is not going to be the same as his.

I've been very fortunate in that I've never had a blarge call in twenty-eight years, but it's not only a matter of a good pregame, and good communication with my partner, it's also a matter of good luck. Over the years. I've had a few times where the gym has been so noisy, and my partner's whistle came at the exact second as my whistle, that I didn't realize that my partner had blown his whistle, and I gave, and in some cases, sold, a preliminary signal, to later discover that my partner had also blown his whistle, and had also given a preliminary signal. Only good luck has kept my string of no blarges alive, with both of us always giving the same preliminary signal. Knock on wood.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Actually it doesn't.

You actually think the case play implies that both of them reported it to the table without the other knowing?