Backcourt Violation EARLY in the Game?

[Rich]

Personally, I would make an exception for the action due to and immediately following the center jump. Every year there's at least one play that I swear is a backcourt violation right after the jump, but I'm the tosser and there's no way I have the distance or perspective to be 100% sure.

It's part of my pregame to discuss the period immediately after the jump:

(1) Look for a backcourt violation
(2) Be ready for a designed outlet/fast break off the tip. Nothing worse than a player getting hammered and the crew not ready or out of position for it. Get the foul if it happens.

[mick]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I would say that for A2 to be considered to be a defensive player, Team A would have to establish team control -- which has not happened, in this case.

The team control issue,or lack there of, raises it's ugly head again.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Is that better (Team A changed to Team B)??? Oops....

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by mick

And why is A2 not a defensive player before he catches the ball and is allowed to land?

Mick:

Whether A2 is a defensive player or not is not germane to the play. The jump ball ended when B2 touched the ball, therefore the exception to the rule is not longer in effect. See the rule references in the P.S.

MTD, Sr.


P.S.:

NFHS R4-S28-A3: "The jump ball begins when the ball leaves the referee’s hand(s) and ends when the touched ball contacts a nonjumper, the floor, a basket or backboard."

NFHS R9-S9-A3: "A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by mick

In 9.9.1D, team control is implied by the phrase * A1's pass *.

Mick:

Team Control is not implied in the Casebook Play 9.9.1, Situation D; the key to the ruling is that the Throw-in ended when the ball was touched by B1 thereby ending the throw-in and ending the exception to the Backcourt Violation Rule.

MTD, Sr.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by mick

In 9.9.1D, team control is implied by the phrase * A1's pass *.

Actually, 9.9.1D describes a throw-in -- therefore, there is no team control.

If the OP were modified to indicate that A1 tapped the ball and B2 recovered in his front court (establishing team control) and passed the ball in the direction of A2; while standing with both feet in Team A's front court (Team B's back court), A2 jumped in the air, caught the ball and landed in Team A's backcourt, this would not be a violation. Per 9.9.3 a defensive player is given the opportunity for the same exception as the player on the throw-in or jump ball situation.

The only reason I say that team control COULD be relevant would be in the situation involving the defensive player exception. Unless the OPPONENT has team control, a player cannot be considered a defensive player eligible for the Rule 9.3.3 exception regarding a back court violation.

[AKOFL]

Would the defensive provision apply to a steal at division line while he is in the air from his front court to back court? Does that make sence?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

Would the defensive provision apply to a steal at division line while he is in the air from his front court to back court? Does that make sence?

Yes -- that's exactly when it applies.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NFHS R9-S9-A3: "A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt."

The problem with the wording in this rule is that, even though the jump ball has ended, the phrase "the team not in control" still applies to both teams.A player cannot jump, secure control, then land in the backcourt. But, that same player may deliberately tap the ball into the backcourt, after which he or a teammate may secure control standing anywhere.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The problem with the wording in this rule is that, even though the jump ball has ended, the phrase "the team not in control" still applies to both teams.A player cannot jump, secure control, then land in the backcourt. But, that same player may deliberately tap the ball into the backcourt, after which he or a teammate may secure control standing anywhere.

Just Another Ref:

There is no problem with the wording. Read the entire first sentece of NFHS R9-S9-A3: "A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt."

1) The ball is being put into play by a jump ball, not a throw-in.

2) There is no team control during a jump ball.

3) The jump ball ended when B2 tapped the ball. B2's tapping of the ball did not establish player and team control of the ball for Team B. B2's tapping of the ball only ended the jump ball.

4) At this point there still are no defensive or offensive players on the court because there is no team control by either team.

5) When A2 caught the ball he simultaneously established player and team control of the ball, and cause the ball to have frontcourt status for Team A.

6) When A2 landed in Team A's backcourt, he did two things simultaneously: (1) His actions caused Team A to make the ball to go from Team A's from court to its backcourt; and (2) He was the first to touch the ball after Team A caused the ball to go from its frontcourt to backcourt.

7) Team A has committed a backcourt violation.

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Just Another Ref:

There is no problem with the wording. Read the entire first sentence of NFHS R9-S9-A3: "A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt."

The first sentence is the problem. Lumping defensive players and all players during the throw-in and jump ball into one little parenthetical phrase I think creates a distortion. No matter who touches the ball, the defensive player is free to land anywhere, but any slight contact with a player, which may not even affect the flight of the ball, ends the throw-in or jump ball, and, well, we know the rest.

I liked the rule better before it was changed, when the exceptions were listed separately, but both allowed a player who gains control for his team to land without penalty.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The first sentence is the problem. Lumping defensive players and all players during the throw-in and jump ball into one little parenthetical phrase I think creates a distortion. No matter who touches the ball, the defensive player is free to land anywhere, but any slight contact with a player, which may not even affect the flight of the ball, ends the throw-in or jump ball, and, well, we know the rest.

I liked the rule better before it was changed, when the exceptions were listed separately, but both allowed a player who gains control for his team to land without penalty.

Just Another Ref:

Did you read how I broke the play down? I broke down the play into individual acts in the order that they occured. It is not a difficult rule to apply.

MTD, Sr.