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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 09:32am
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End of Game Intentional Delay

We had a long debate yesterday at our association meeting about the end of game tactic used to stop the clock.

Team A is down and scores a basket with , say, 8 seconds remaining in the game. There have been no delay warnings prior to this basket. A1 grabs the ball as it comes through the net and holds it. Do you whistle and give a delay warning?

What if prior to this play you heard the head coach of Team A instruct his players to do this or if he yelled to bat the ball away? Does that change how you would call it?
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 09:34am
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Originally Posted by Spence View Post
We had a long debate yesterday at our association meeting about the end of game tactic used to stop the clock.

Team A is down and scores a basket with , say, 8 seconds remaining in the game. There have been no delay warnings prior to this basket. A1 grabs the ball as it comes through the net and holds it. Do you whistle and give a delay warning?

What if prior to this play you heard the head coach of Team A instruct his players to do this or if he yelled to bat the ball away? Does that change how you would call it?
You would think during an association meeting, someone would be able to open their case book and pull up the case play.

Case play says you are to hold the whistle unless the delay tactic actually interferes with an attempt to inbound the ball. In that case, you go straight to the T.

My books are at home, so I can't quote the case play number, but I'm sure someone will be along to help.
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 09:53am
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Boundary-plane warning – last second tactic

9.2.10 SITUATION: A1 is out of bounds for a throw-in. B1 reaches through the boundary plane and knocks the ball out of A1’s hands. Team B has not been warned previously for a throw-in plane infraction. RULING: B1 is charged with a technical foul and it also results in the official having a team warning recorded and reported to the head coach. COMMENT: In situations with the clock running and five or less seconds left in the game, a throw-in plane violation or interfering with the ball following a goal should be ignored if its only purpose is to stop the clock. However, if the tactic in any way interferes with the thrower’s efforts to make a throw-in, a technical foul for delay shall be called even though no previous warning had been issued. In this situation, if the official stopped the clock and issued a team warning, it would allow the team to benefit from the tactic. (4-47-1; 10-1-5c)
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 10:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
We had a long debate yesterday at our association meeting about the end of game tactic used to stop the clock.

Team A is down and scores a basket with , say, 8 seconds remaining in the game. There have been no delay warnings prior to this basket. A1 grabs the ball as it comes through the net and holds it. Do you whistle and give a delay warning?

What if prior to this play you heard the head coach of Team A instruct his players to do this or if he yelled to bat the ball away? Does that change how you would call it?
9.2.10 COMMENT: In situations with the clock running and five or less seconds left in the game, a throw-in plane violation or interfering with the ball following a goal should be ignored if its only purpose is to stop the clock. However, if the tactic in any way interferes with the thrower's efforts to make a throw-in, a technical foul shall be called even though no previous warning had been issued. In this situation, if the official stopped the clock and issued a team warning, it would allow the team to benefit from the tactic.
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 10:12am
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why the T

In my game I would hold the whistle...let them stand there holding the ball, let the clock run out. B won't be whistled for a 5 second violation as the ball isn't at their disposal. If A complains then they get the T. If A realizes what is happening and then gives B the ball, then they get the T, but if they are content to stand there holding the ball while the clock runs out, so be it.
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 10:16am
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Even if A gives the ball to B, I'm not calling the T unless B then tries a throwin and it was delayed by A's actions. If B gets the ball and just stands there, I'll just start my count. No way I'm getting to 5 in the OP.
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 10:17am
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Originally Posted by cmathews View Post
In my game I would hold the whistle...let them stand there holding the ball, let the clock run out. B won't be whistled for a 5 second violation as the ball isn't at their disposal. If A complains then they get the T. If A realizes what is happening and then gives B the ball, then they get the T, but if they are content to stand there holding the ball while the clock runs out, so be it.
This doesn't make sense. A just scored: you're going to let them interfere with B's opportunity to put the ball back in play? I disagree: based on the case plays already posted, I'm calling the T sooner rather than later on this.

Maybe you just misread the OP and didn't realize that A scored, that they're ahead, and that they're denying B the opportunity to put the ball back in play.
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 10:21am
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Originally Posted by grunewar View Post
9.2.10 SITUATION: A1 is out of bounds for a throw-in. B1 reaches through the boundary plane and knocks the ball out of A1’s hands. Team B has not been warned previously for a throw-in plane infraction. RULING: B1 is charged with a technical foul and it also results in the official having a team warning recorded and reported to the head coach. COMMENT: In situations with the clock running and five or less seconds left in the game, a throw-in plane violation or interfering with the ball following a goal should be ignored if its only purpose is to stop the clock. However, if the tactic in any way interferes with the thrower’s efforts to make a throw-in, a technical foul for delay shall be called even though no previous warning had been issued. In this situation, if the official stopped the clock and issued a team warning, it would allow the team to benefit from the tactic. (4-47-1; 10-1-5c)
The only thing that this shows is that the warning is accomapanying the Technical.
If the opponent of the the thrower reaches through the plan and bats the ball away at any time during the the game the technical foul is called.
That technical foul automatically carries a warning for delay.
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 10:22am
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
This doesn't make sense. A just scored: you're going to let them interfere with B's opportunity to put the ball back in play? I disagree: based on the case plays already posted, I'm calling the T sooner rather than later on this.

Maybe you just misread the OP and didn't realize that A scored, that they're ahead, and that they're denying B the opportunity to put the ball back in play.
I'm not sure which of us is right. I'm reading it as A just scored but still trails and is simply trying to stop the clock.

If A is ahead and does this, simply stop the clock and issue the warning. No need for a T (unless they've already been warned.)
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 10:23am
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Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
The only thing that this shows is that the warning is accomapanying the Technical.
If the opponent of the the thrower reaches throght the plan and bats the ball away at any time during the the game the technical foul is called.
That technical foul automatically carries a warning for delay.
This is the relevant part to the OP:
Quote:
COMMENT: In situations with the clock running and five or less seconds left in the game, a throw-in plane violation or interfering with the ball following a goal should be ignored if its only purpose is to stop the clock. However, if the tactic in any way interferes with the thrower’s efforts to make a throw-in, a technical foul for delay shall be called even though no previous warning had been issued. In this situation, if the official stopped the clock and issued a team warning, it would allow the team to benefit from the tactic. (4-47-1; 10-1-5c)
IOW, it says to let it go if the trailing team is trying to delay the game just to stop the clock when they're out of TOs.
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 10:44am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
You would think during an association meeting, someone would be able to open their case book and pull up the case play.

Case play says you are to hold the whistle unless the delay tactic actually interferes with an attempt to inbound the ball. In that case, you go straight to the T.

My books are at home, so I can't quote the case play number, but I'm sure someone will be along to help.
Folks, I'm well aware of the case play in the book. However, as someone has cited, that deals with 5 seconds or less. My OP had more than 5 seconds which I can't find a case play for.

So if the team who is behind and needs the clock to stop grabs the ball or , bats the ball away before its picked up by the thrower, what do you have? That's the question at hand. Do you reward the defense with a delay warning which stops the clock which is what they want?

Also, again, if you heard the coach instruct his players along the lines of "if we score, bat the ball away " could you/would you call a T if that actually then happened using the "upsporting conduct" logic?

Last edited by Spence; Mon Jan 05, 2009 at 10:46am.
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 10:59am
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Originally Posted by Spence View Post
1. Folks, I'm well aware of the case play in the book. However, as someone has cited, that deals with 5 seconds or less. My OP had more than 5 seconds which I can't find a case play for.

2. So if the team who is behind and needs the clock to stop grabs the ball or , bats the ball away before its picked up by the thrower, what do you have? That's the question at hand. Do you reward the defense with a delay warning which stops the clock which is what they want?

3. Also, again, if you heard the coach instruct his players along the lines of "if we score, bat the ball away " could you/would you call a T if that actually then happened using the "upsporting conduct" logic?
1. I see your point, but the case play works with 8 seconds as well, IMO. Let the ball roll/bounce away while the clock runs. The spirit and intent behind the case play also works when there is 8 seconds remaining.

2. No, either let it go, or if the new offense is trying to inbound the ball, go straight to the T.

3. No. Not based on the coach's words, anyway. Base it on the case play.

The spirit and intent of the D.O.G. rule is not to allow the defense to benefit. the key part of the case play is not the time remaining, although it is definitely relevant. The key part is "if its only purpose is to stop the clock."
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 11:45am
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If there are 8 seconds remaining, I'm calling a delay. You have no rules justification to do anything else. Coach A also deserves consideration for Coach of the Year for knowing the rules well enough to benefit his team.

If there are 5 seconds or less remaining. I have nothing. A1 could drop kick the ball into the upper deck and I am not blowing my whistle. Game over, drive home safely.
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 12:57pm
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I may have to check

You know, it may take me a couple seconds to make sure that A's head coach doesn't need a time out, and oh look at that when I look back to the endline there are less than 5 seconds left.........In either case I am not going to stop the game and let them benefit from an illegal tactic...
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Old Mon Jan 05, 2009, 01:54pm
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If there are 8 seconds remaining, I'm calling a delay. You have no rules justification to do anything else. Coach A also deserves consideration for Coach of the Year for knowing the rules well enough to benefit his team.

.
That was the argument given by one of the vets in the group. The rulebook says to call a delay. Is there another rule/interp that we could use to override the delay rule?
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