Intentional delay without warning

[bkiledad]

Do we always have to give a warning before a technical foul for delay of game?

Team A is out of timeouts and is down by 4 points in the closing seconds of the game. During a dead ball, I hear Coach A telling his players to bat the ball away after a made basket -- they did not have a warning yet for delay.

What's the call if they follow the coaches orders? The coach is manipulating the rules in order to stop the clock without a timeout. Fortunately, Team A never made a basket so we didn't have to do anything. I was inclined to ignore the bat and just let the clock run, but my partner said he would have given the warning. I seem to vaguely remember thinking that we could actually issue a technical foul if we had wanted... again, IF Team A had scored and carried out the plan.

What do you think?

[BigJoe]

In this situation you could issue a player technical foul under rule 10-7a. The warning is not required if you think that this rule is being violated. I thought there was a provision for this being an immediate T without warning in the last minute, but don't have my casebook. Also, you would be justified under 10-5 to issue a team technical. In my opinion a T is the way to go in this situation.
Why didn't he just foul?

[Jurassic Referee]

I think that if there is less than 5 seconds to go in the game,the official is supposed to ignore the touching in a case like this,and just let the clock run out.If the tactic interferes in any way with the thrower's efforts to make a throw-in,you just call the T-even if there hasn't been a previous warning.It's in the casebook-CB9.2.11Comment.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I think that if there is less than 5 seconds to go in the game,the official is supposed to ignore the touching in a case like this,and just let the clock run out.If the tactic interferes in any way with the thrower's efforts to make a throw-in,you just call the T-even if there hasn't been a previous warning.It's in the casebook-CB9.2.11Comment.

Can't imagine ignoring this! I would undoubtedly call the T. Just my vote.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I think that if there is less than 5 seconds to go in the game,the official is supposed to ignore the touching in a case like this,and just let the clock run out.If the tactic interferes in any way with the thrower's efforts to make a throw-in,you just call the T-even if there hasn't been a previous warning.It's in the casebook-CB9.2.11Comment.

JR:

Bkiledad is making a case that the scoring team is intentionally batting the ball away after a made basket to consume time. i think we have a pretty clearcut case for delay here.

Rain< not sure if we could have an immediate T here but definately a whistle and clock stoppage for a reported delay sitch.

[Hawks Coach]

I think you have immediate whistle and a warning for delay. You have now turned the tables on team A. Team B will now get to inbound with a stopped clock, and the clock won't start until it is touched inbounds. If you are ready (you heard the instruction), you can blow it dead on the touch. This will give B more time after the inital touch inbounds than they would have if they had to ake it OOB themselves and throw in with a running clock.

I am sure that Team B gets as much or more time under this scenario, although it also allows A to set up on defense. However, the latter advantage to A is of less concern because the delay of game warning is intended to address that specific advantage. By blowing the whistle, you eliminate the other advantage for A, and probably turn it to B's favor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
[/B]

JR:

Bkiledad is making a case that the scoring team is intentionally batting the ball away after a made basket to consume time. i think we have a pretty clearcut case for delay here.

Rain< not sure if we could have an immediate T here but definately a whistle and clock stoppage for a reported delay sitch. [/B][/QUOTE]Didn't read Casebook play 9.2.11Sit-plus COMMENT,did ya? It's the same as the original question,and it tells you exactly what to do. Takes the guesswork out of this particular sitch.

[Hawks Coach]

JR
I read the casebook example as referring to a throw-in plane violation or something that occurs when the thrower has the ball, because it refers to a thrower as though there is a person with the ball. But it is not clear in this regard. And I see it as different than an immediate bat away, because now B loses more time if they got the ball and then had it hit away. An immediate tap probably is no real loss in terms of time.

However, you could enforce with a T as you describe, and that also serves A right for having behaved in a decidedly unsporting manner.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

JR:

Bkiledad is making a case that the scoring team is intentionally batting the ball away after a made basket to consume time. i think we have a pretty clearcut case for delay here.

Rain< not sure if we could have an immediate T here but definately a whistle and clock stoppage for a reported delay sitch. [/B]

Didn't read Casebook play 9.2.11Sit-plus COMMENT,did ya? It's the same as the original question,and it tells you exactly what to do. Takes the guesswork out of this particular sitch. [/B][/QUOTE]

JR:

After re-reading the sitch you are absolutely correct. I misread the original play and thought the team that was ahead by 4 was intentionally batting the ball away to keep the clock running and to delay the other teams throw in. Your posts are correct in regards to the original case above. Hopefully this is my kicked-call for the day ensuring a perfect performance on the court tonight!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
JR
I read the casebook example as referring to a throw-in plane violation or something that occurs when the thrower has the ball, because it refers to a thrower as though there is a person with the ball. But it is not clear in this regard. And I see it as different than an immediate bat away, because now B loses more time if they got the ball and then had it hit away. An immediate tap probably is no real loss in terms of time.

However, you could enforce with a T as you describe, and that also serves A right for having behaved in a decidedly unsporting manner.

Coach,did you happen to miss the part of 9.2.11COMMENT that said "OR INTERFERING WITH THE BALL FOLLOWING A GOAL"? There's no guesswork on this one.It covers both scenarios.It's the same situation as above,and it tells you exactly what to do.

[Hawks Coach]

Comment: In situations with the clock running and five or less seconds left in the game, a throw-in plane violation or interfering with the ball following a goal should be ignored if its only purpose is to stop the clock. However, if the tactic in any way interferes with the thrower’s efforts to make a throw-in, a technical foul for delay shall be called even though no previous warning had been issued.

JR
I read this as two independent sentences regarding a five seconds left situation.

Sentence 1, the intent is to stop the clock. This would be the situation where A is behind, has no TOs left, makes shot with less than 5 seconds remaining, and has no recourse but to put the ball into the bleachers and hope you blow your whistle, cause B ain't gonna inbound the ball. why do I say this? Clearly, A has no interest in stopping the clock with less than 5 seconds if they have the lead. This is to prevent A from forcing B to inbound with less than five on the clock and the clock running.

Sentence 2, the situation is different. We may have a tie or A in the lead, and A doesn't want B to get a good inbounds and a chance to score. So they interfere with a thrower's attempt to make a throw-in. Not sure they have done that if there is no thrower - all they have done is given an instant clock stoppage to B, which gives them more chance to get a good throw in. That was how I read it, but not sure what NF is saying.

[Ridge Wiz]

Yes you can & should give the T when a team delays in the closing seconds of a game.

This actually happened to me last season with a rec. league team.

B1 fouled my player after a made basket. I only had three players left when the other team scored. I only had one player that was capable of protecting the ball from the fullcourt defense. I called TO to set up the double throw-in. My best player, A1, threw the ball to A2 who was then fouled by B1. There was less than 1 minute in the game & the score was tied. The sitch. had just been reviewed about a week earlier by the official & I so we both knew the rule. Lucky for me. A1 hit both free throws & we played keep away for the last few seconds.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Ridge Wiz
Yes you can & should give the T when a team delays in the closing seconds of a game.

This actually happened to me last season with a rec. league team.

B1 fouled my player after a made basket. I only had three players left when the other team scored. I only had one player that was capable of protecting the ball from the fullcourt defense. I called TO to set up the double throw-in. My best player, A1, threw the ball to A2 who was then fouled by B1. There was less than 1 minute in the game & the score was tied. The sitch. had just been reviewed about a week earlier by the official & I so we both knew the rule. Lucky for me. A1 hit both free throws & we played keep away for the last few seconds.

Ridge this post deals directly w/ another thread dealing w/ the double pass before inbounding http://www.officialforum.com/thread/7245 That thread directly talks about this.


Hawks: JR's citation covers the original sitch EXACTLY TO THE LETTER. If a team is behind and bats the ball after it enters the basket w/ 5 secs or less on the clock. DO NOTHING let the clock run out. (personally I may extend that to 6-7 secs if they do it intentionally.) If they heave the ball out of bounds or down the court we have a T for unsporting. If they interfere w/ the throwers effort to inbound the pass they are reaching across the boundry plane or touching the ball it is an Intentional Personal or a T. If the player is dumb enough to try to inbound the ball w/ less than 5 secs left and the defense is legal, too bad.

The way I orr. read the sitch was the team that was ahead was intentionally batting the ball after it entered the basket to keep the clock running and delay the inbound pass. Then we would have immediate T for delay (no warning needed). These are two completely different sitchs here.



[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 31st, 2003 at 03:30 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Comment: In situations with the clock running and five or less seconds left in the game, a throw-in plane violation or interfering with the ball following a goal should be ignored if its only purpose is to stop the clock. However, if the tactic in any way interferes with the thrower’s efforts to make a throw-in, a technical foul for delay shall be called even though no previous warning had been issued.

JR
I read this as two independent sentences regarding a five seconds left situation.

Sentence 1, the intent is to stop the clock. This would be the situation where A is behind, has no TOs left, makes shot with less than 5 seconds remaining, and has no recourse but to put the ball into the bleachers and hope you blow your whistle, cause B ain't gonna inbound the ball. why do I say this? Clearly, A has no interest in stopping the clock with less than 5 seconds if they have the lead. This is to prevent A from forcing B to inbound with less than five on the clock and the clock running.

Sentence 2, the situation is different. We may have a tie or A in the lead, and A doesn't want B to get a good inbounds and a chance to score. So they interfere with a thrower's attempt to make a throw-in. Not sure they have done that if there is no thrower - all they have done is given an instant clock stoppage to B, which gives them more chance to get a good throw in. That was how I read it, but not sure what NF is saying.

The NFHS is telling us not to allow a team to benefit from getting the clock stopped. So,in Sentence #1,you ignore the throw-in plane violation,or batting the ball,and just let the clock run out. In sentence #2,you call the immediate T on A instead of issuing a warning first,if you want to.In both cases,you are making sure that they won't benefit,as per this casebook play.