Questionable T?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I'd love to post this anonymously, but I'll take the blame here.

1st "T" of the year last night. Last year I had about 15 total and all were good. I have done 17 games to date, mostly varsity.

Here's the situation. #10 for visitor fouls #21 for home team hard. My partner has the foul. I hear #10 say something to the effect about "bringing that soft a$$ something something," but I can make it out real well because she is wearing a mouth guard. I let it go, it's fairly early in the game and no other problems. Then 3 plays later, 10 and 21 on a Free throw 21 has inside position and gets knocked to the floor hard, she has to leave the game, they were not my responsibility so, I missed exactly what happened. Half time.

Partners talk about what happened in 1st half and I let them know ( I am the R ) that we weren't going to put up with any trash talk for #10 and we talked about the 2 hard contacts between 10 and 21.

Visitors down by about 14 in 3rd and they are making a comeback cut the lead to about 7. Home team scores and 10 is mouthing off, but because she has a mouth piece in I can't make out what she is saying. Her mannerisms lead me to believe that she was complaining about the no call, perhaps there was a missed walk on home team, I don't know. I was in "C" and closest to the action. I "T" her up for mouthing off.

Coach asks why I "T'ed" her and I explain that she had trash talked earlier and I felt she was doing the same thing this time, but I couldn't make out her words because of the mouth guard. Coach not happy. Fans less happy and they are riding me the rest of the game. Home team runs off 10 straight and has a good lead again. Visitors cut it to a tie in the fourth then we have to call a lot of fouls in the last minute and home team wins it at the Free throw line by 4 points making 4 of 6 FTs.

How bad was this "T". I don't feel good about it because I couldn't make out what she said, but there had been an accumulative behavior to that point.

I believe that you missed the appropriate T at the time of the first inappropriate comment. That situation stayed with you and definitely impacted the choice that you made later.

I'm against getting someone later for something that they did earlier and weren't punished for, but as you noted there is a cumulative effect here. That is natural when dealing with people.

Personally, I never repeat with a player said to earn a T. When the coach asks "What did he say?" I have a few standard answers:
"He used inappropriate language."
"He used the f-word."
"Something that he shouldn't have."
"I'm not going to repeat it. You'll have to check with your player."
"It's not what he said, it was the way that he said it."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Could have used this advice/tactic....and I will in the future.

8th Grade Girls game. V down by 30 or so. Really a route. One of the only V Girls with any skills is getting frustrated - and it shows. I had the opportunity to talk to her during an inbounds play and as I handed her the ball I told her she needed to relax and play the game as she was getting a little "out of control." I then handed her the ball and off we go.

A few minutes later there's a scrum on the floor for a loose ball and she is fighting for it. TWEET! Now, I normally go toward the action (as I've been taught) and say something like, "easy, easy," trying to let them know we're here and the play is over. She keeps fighting for the ball and wrestling and swinging (I didn't call a foul). TWEET! I yelled, "ENOUGH!

Well, apparently, I hurt this Girls feelings. At the next break, the coach told me this young lady was on the bench crying and I shouldn't have raised my voice to her. I explained to the coach what happened previosuly about my warning and she said ok, she wasn't aware of that and asked me to inform her of this type of situation in the future. My partner, whom I worked with many times before agreed with the coach and said I was a bit over the top - I just didn't want it to go any further.

While there was no real opportunity to do so in my case (IMO), it's a good point and lesson learned for me - use the coach.

grunewar:

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Sometimes you have to put some extra pizazz in your voice.

About six years ago in a USSSA Girls' 12U Fast Pitch Tournament the pitcher for the the really good team liked to quick pitch after every foul ball. After the umpteenth time of calling no pitch her coach got upset with me (why am I always the bad guy, ) and finally went out to "calm' her down. As he was returning to the dugout he yelled to me: "Look what you did, you made her cry you jerk!" She was indeed crying but the coach did not stop in the dugout and did not collect $200 as he continued on to the parking lot, .

Second storying about crying. Daryl and I were officiating the Michigan AAU Girls' 18U Tournament (qualifier to the national) about ten years ago. I called a foul on a girl and she turned to me and used a very unlady like word, which earned her a TF for unsportsmanlike conduct. The TF was her fifth foul; when I informed her that she had fouled out, she started crying.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

I had no idea you were so heartless, MTD.

[Nevadaref]

You big meanie!!!

[dbking]

Just my $.02!

Game management tools are very necessary in officiating. Use all tools required. You should have had a coaches and captains meeting.

If you did not hear the words completely and grandma could not hear them in the first row,

Talk to the player, "#10 I need your help in this situation, I heard parts of words and I am not going to fill in the blanks. Your the teams best player and they need your help."

Talk to the captain that is on the floor, "Captain, I need your help. #10 is out of control and I do not want to hear anything that comes close to taunting!"

Talk to the coach, "Coach, I need your help with #10. I did not hear all of the words but I am sure that she was out of line. Thanks, coach."

There will be no questions when you T her later for a similar act.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by dbking

Just my $.02!

Game management tools are very necessary in officiating. Use all tools required. You should have had a coaches and captains meeting.

If you did not hear the words completely and grandma could not hear them in the first row,

Talk to the player, "#10 I need your help in this situation, I heard parts of words and I am not going to fill in the blanks. Your the teams best player and they need your help."

Talk to the captain that is on the floor, "Captain, I need your help. #10 is out of control and I do not want to hear anything that comes close to taunting!"

Talk to the coach, "Coach, I need your help with #10. I did not hear all of the words but I am sure that she was out of line. Thanks, coach."

There will be no questions when you T her later for a similar act.

1. I think your grandma criterion is a poor standard to use.
It doesn't matter what anyone in the crowd or on the bench can or cannot hear. What is important is what the players say and do and what the official on the court hears and observes.

2. If you are sure that the player was out of line, then that needs to be penalized with a technical foul, for sure.

3. Why would you advocate not assessing a penalty for the first act, but waiting for a similar act later in the game? What if you don't fully hear the words again the second time? What makes your handling of the situation different? I believe that similar situations need to be handled as similarly as possible.

[Kelvin green]

[QUOTE=Terrapins Fan;563042]I'd love to post this anonymously, but I'll take the blame here.

I hear #10 say something to the effect about "bringing that soft a$$ something something," but I can make it out real well because she is wearing a mouth guard. QUOTE]

Here is my opinion for what its worth... (even if this is not a big deal) If you hear something like this walk up to the player and tell them to knock the garbage off and play... The opponent will see you are adressing it so it does not escalate-- Coaches may even ask you what she did... Even if it did not warrant a T prevent officiating here will go along way...

Use the captain and tell the capatin that #10 is getting mouthy...

Use the coach and have the coach get the player under control...

[Bad Zebra]

What am I missing here? I can't understand the debate about warnings or talking to the coach or captains. If you heard the word "a$$" come out of her mouth...WHACK! T will be served®. It's profanity and the rule couldn't be clearer. It doesn't matter what the context was or what garbled words followed. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Any tolerance only teaches the player that he or she can get away next time with a warning too.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

What am I missing here? I can't understand the debate about warnings or talking to the coach or captains. If you heard the word "a$$" come out of her mouth...WHACK! T will be served. It's profanity and the rule couldn't be clearer. It doesn't matter what the context was or what garbled words followed. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Any tolerance only teaches the player that he or she can get away next time with a warning too.

I concur with the general sentiment of your post, but I have to disagree with your specific statement that this word is profanity.


White #10 to her nearby teammate: "Oh, I think I just bruised my a$$ taking that charge."

White #10 to a nearby official: "I hate it when my dad yells from the stands. He makes such an a$$ of himself that it's embarrassing."

Do you have a T in both of these situations?

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Really? I don't agree.

White #10 to her nearby teammate: "Oh, I think I just bruised my a$$ taking that charge."

White #10 to a nearby official: "I hate it when my dad yells from the stands. He makes such an a$$ of himself that it's embarrassing."

Do you have a T in both of these situations?

In the first case maybe not. In the second, why would a player express her feelings using a cuss word to an official? Doesn't seem likely.

In neither of those examples did the conversation take place within the scope of the game. I think the original sitch did and seemed like an attempt at taunting on top of using profanity.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

In the first case maybe not. In the second, why would a player express her feelings using a cuss word to an official? Doesn't seem likely.

In neither of those examples did the conversation take place within the scope of the game. I think the original sitch did and seemed like an attempt at taunting on top of using profanity.

And that is why a T is appropriate in the given situation.

You know that a player addressed an opponent in an unsporting manner. The use of certain words is indicative of that, but not in and of itself the offense.

I would counsel you to refrain from putting your individual opinion of what words are appropriate and which are not into your decisions. There are clearly some that are obvious, but there are far more that are not. When it comes to judging language, it is better to operate within widely accepted parameters.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

What am I missing here? I can't understand the debate about warnings or talking to the coach or captains. If you heard the word "a$$" come out of her mouth...WHACK! T will be served®. It's profanity and the rule couldn't be clearer. It doesn't matter what the context was or what garbled words followed. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Any tolerance only teaches the player that he or she can get away next time with a warning too.

I agree, T...but be careful with the phrase "profanity." An English teacher/Varsity Coach taught me the difference between vulgarity and profanity...there is a difference, and I had it wrong.....

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

...I would counsel you to refrain from putting your individual opinion of what words are appropriate and which are not into your decisions. There are clearly some that are obvious, but there are far more that are not. When it comes to judging language, it is better to operate within widely accepted parameters.

I disagree. Widely accepted by whom? Society? Coaches? Administrators? Other officials? Further...our individual opinions are exactly why we get paid to do what we do.

"Widely Accepted" parameters sounds an awful like concensus to me. Concensus has no place in officiating a basketball game.

Just my humble opinion.

[JRutledge]

I have come to the conclusion that all Ts are questionable to someone. Even when there is a clear violation of the rules, someone that was not in that situation is going to have something to say. The best thing any official can do is try to see if the people they work for has a problem with them and did the people you work with think something could have been done to prevent them. Otherwise, someone is always going to have something to say. I have given 3 Ts this year (more than some years already) and someone feels they did nothing wrong. You are never going to win with everyone, just do what you feel is best and hope the people you work for accept your decisions. Sometimes that is based on your reputation or stature as an official.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I disagree. Widely accepted by whom? Society? Coaches? Administrators? Other officials? Further...our individual opinions are exactly why we get paid to do what we do.

"Widely Accepted" parameters sounds an awful like concensus to me. Concensus has no place in officiating a basketball game.

Just my humble opinion.

Ok, then best of luck doing it your way. I sincerely hope that it brings you success. I only offered my advice. You certainly don't have to take it.

There definitely are things that I do which are counter to the widespread practice of others.

Inappropriate language is a difficult concept to officiate. I happen to like the advice presented by the US Soccer Federation.
OT - Player sets unwanted record with three-second dismissal

It has the benefit of not requiring me to make decisions about individual words or phrases. For people like yourself who seem to take a different approach, I always wonder what makes the list and what doesn't?

T or not? (? to anyone, not just BZ)
1. d@mn
2. Jesus Christ
3. son of gun
4. dang
5. suck
6. crap
7. OMG