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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 11:10am
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Broken Nose

Small school varsity girls (AAAaaawful basketball!!!!!) I have a situation where I am lead. A1,a big girl, with ball is VERY closely guarded by smallish (well shortish) B1, above the free throw line extended. about 4 feet from my sideline. A1 pivots, with elbows out, and strikes the girl guarding her in the face. In both my partner's and my opinion the player with the ball was not throwing elbows and the elbow was not malicious. My partner later said he did not think it was severe enough to warrant a foul but I have a hard time passing on that so I came out with player control. (Yes, it was his primary)

I reported the foul and started to resume play when the coach goes ballistic and screams "aren't you going to call an official's time out. I said "no" and the coach yells "not even for a broken nose?" B1 had left the court and was laying behind the bench where we could not see her. There was a sheriff, an EMT and another adult all tending to her. My partner went over, assessed the situation and asked the coach for a sub. Coach was furious but put in a sub and we resumed play.

Typically, we do a girls varsity followed by a boys varsity. During half time of the boys game the girls coach stops us as we are leaving the court and tells us that an elbow is an automatic technical and he can show us in the rule book. He told us he was going to write us up. We did not challenge his rule prowess but did tell him he was welcome to write the state office. I don't expect to here any more about it.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 11:17am
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Based upon your description, you made the proper call.
Contact during a LIVE ball is never a technical foul. The coach is 100% wrong. You have nothing to fear from a report to the state office. File an injury report if you need to. I bet that you are glad that you called a foul on the play even though it was in your partner's area. I wonder what his reaction was when he learned that the player was hit hard enough to break her nose and he didn't believe that a foul was warranted. (Of course, an injury isn't always conclusive proof that something illegal occurred, but it does make for an easy whistle.)

Your choices were: common foul = PC foul, intentional personal foul, flagrant personal foul.

Remember that the guard is not required to give the ball handler any time or distance as long as the guard does not make contact. If the offensive player violates the guard's vertical space and places that player at a disadvantage, a foul on the offensive player should be called.

There are times when contact will occur due to the normal pivoting movement and not be a foul as it will not place any player at a disadvantage. In that case, it should be deemed incidental contact.

Just don't fail to protect the defender who has a right to that space in the same manner as you always hear about protecting the shooter.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 11:20am.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 11:24am
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Originally Posted by mcdanrd View Post
Small school varsity girls (AAAaaawful basketball!!!!!) I have a situation where I am lead. A1,a big girl, with ball is VERY closely guarded by smallish (well shortish) B1, above the free throw line extended. about 4 feet from my sideline. A1 pivots, with elbows out, and strikes the girl guarding her in the face. In both my partner's and my opinion the player with the ball was not throwing elbows and the elbow was not malicious. My partner later said he did not think it was severe enough to warrant a foul but I have a hard time passing on that so I came out with player control. (Yes, it was his primary)

I reported the foul and started to resume play when the coach goes ballistic and screams "aren't you going to call an official's time out. I said "no" and the coach yells "not even for a broken nose?" B1 had left the court and was laying behind the bench where we could not see her. There was a sheriff, an EMT and another adult all tending to her. My partner went over, assessed the situation and asked the coach for a sub. Coach was furious but put in a sub and we resumed play.

Typically, we do a girls varsity followed by a boys varsity. During half time of the boys game the girls coach stops us as we are leaving the court and tells us that an elbow is an automatic technical and he can show us in the rule book. He told us he was going to write us up. We did not challenge his rule prowess but did tell him he was welcome to write the state office. I don't expect to here any more about it.
Could not have been Technical during a live ball. Three choices: Intentional Personal, Flagrant Personal or Player control. I am not going to doubt you, HTBT, Player control is what you called.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 11:25am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Based upon your description, you made the proper call.
Contact during a LIVE ball is never a technical foul. The coach is 100% wrong. You have nothing to fear from a report to the state office. File an injury report if you need to. I bet that you are glad that you called a foul on the play even though it was in your partner's area. I wonder what his reaction was when he learned that the player was hit hard enough to break her nose and he didn't believe that a foul was warranted. (Of course, an injury isn't always conclusive proof that something illegal occurred, but it does make for an easy whistle.)

Your choices were: common foul = PC foul, intentional personal foul, flagrant personal foul.

Remember that the guard is not required to give the ball handler any time or distance as long as the guard does not make contact. If the offensive player violates the guard's vertical space and places that player at a disadvantage, a foul on the offensive player should be called.

There are times when contact will occur due to the normal pivoting movement and not be a foul as it will not place any player at a disadvantage. In that case, it should be deemed incidental contact.

Just don't fail to protect the defender who has a right to that space in the same manner as you always hear about protecting the shooter.
Good advice Nevada!
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 11:46am
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Originally Posted by mcdanrd View Post
He told us he was going to write us up. We did not challenge his rule prowess but did tell him he was welcome to write the state office. I don't expect to here any more about it.
The coach will end up with egg on his face.

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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Contact during a LIVE ball is never a technical foul. ... There are times when contact will occur due to the normal pivoting movement and not be a foul as it will not place any player at a disadvantage. In that case, it should be deemed incidental contact.
Well said.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:09pm
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Me: "Find it and show me, coach."
It's obvious he can't for two reasons.

1. It's not there, and we all know it.
2. He'd had plenty of time to find it and didn't have it ready for you.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 12:59pm
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Originally Posted by mcdanrd View Post
During half time of the boys game the girls coach stops us as we are leaving the court and tells us that an elbow is an automatic technical and he can show us in the rule book. He told us he was going to write us up. We did not challenge his rule prowess but did tell him he was welcome to write the state office. I don't expect to here any more about it.
"Coach, we're not having this conversation, but before you write us up I'd suggest you read that rule book closely..."
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 01:22pm
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Why would there be a need to call an officials timeout, if the player got off the court while you were reporting the foul to the table. Clearly the coach knew that the player had to come out, so wouldn't he send a sub to the table automaticly? Maybe I am mis understanding the situation.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 01:23pm
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Originally Posted by IHSAref View Post
Why would there be a need to call an officials timeout, if the player got off the court while you were reporting the foul to the table. Clearly the coach knew that the player had to come out, so wouldn't he send a sub to the table automaticly? Maybe I am mis understanding the situation.
No, you seem to be understanding it perfectly. The coach, however....
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 01:25pm
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Thanks Snaqwells. I was just double checking!
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 01:31pm
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Originally Posted by IHSAref View Post
Why would there be a need to call an officials timeout, if the player got off the court while you were reporting the foul to the table. Clearly the coach knew that the player had to come out, so wouldn't he send a sub to the table automaticly? Maybe I am mis understanding the situation.
Actually, the coach is entitled to a 20-second replacement period for the injured player.
The coach may have wanted that, but didn't know the terminology or how to ask for it.

Also, there may be some blood on the floor that needs cleaning up.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 01:35pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Actually, the coach is entitled to a 20-second replacement period for the injured player.
The coach may have wanted that, but didn't know the terminology or how to ask for it.

Also, there may be some blood on the floor that needs cleaning up.
Perhaps, but his later rules gaffe removes the benefit of the doubt I would have given him.

BTW, can you point me to the rule for the 20 second replacement period?

Never mind, found it. 10-5-3
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Last edited by Adam; Tue Dec 23, 2008 at 01:40pm.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 01:37pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Perhaps, but his later rules gaffe removes the benefit of the doubt I would have given him.
I had the same thought, but since that didn't occur until later, how could the official have known that the coach was a clueless git at the time of the injury?
Plus, it seems that the officials were unaware of the injury and that there were only nine players on the floor.
Game awareness moment.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 01:38pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I had the same thought, but since that didn't occur until later, how could the official have known that the coach was a clueless git at the time of the injury?
Plus, it seems that the officials were unaware of the injury and perhaps there were only nine players on the floor.
All true.
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Old Tue Dec 23, 2008, 02:18pm
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Originally Posted by mcdanrd View Post
an elbow is an automatic technical
Yeah, it is. It's part of the same rule that says you can have a 3 second call while the ball is still in the backcourt, that a player that reaches over another player without contact to get the ball has committed an over-the-back foul and that backcourt violations can occur without team control. It's called NF rule 11. All coaches have it in their rulebook. Unfortunately, no officials do.
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