End of Game, Nose Swats at Snap

[duckdr`]

Last week at the end of our game the offense was taking a knee. The defensive nose tackle swatted at the snap and knocked the ball out of the hand of the center. I know it is illegal in NCAA. What about NFHS?

Thanks for any help.

DuckDr

[Theisey]

Rules differences manual says it is legal, but I have a hard time with it. I can't envision such a slow snap or such a fast defensive hand that this wouldn't be flaged as encroachment.

[Derock2004]

The defense can not interfere or impede the snapping of the ball.

NFHS. Section 38, Art 2. The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

Section 1, Art 3. A snap shall, if elected, put the ball in play when a free kick is not specified.

Art 6. The ball remains dead and a down is not begun if a snap or free kick is attempted before the ball is ready for play, or there is an illegal snap, other snap infraction or a dead-ball foul occurs.

The way I interpret this ruling is in a legal snap the center must move the ball backwards AND "release" it! After the release of the ball, the clock starts and you have a live ball. If the center doesn't release the ball, you have a false start. If the defense slaps the ball from the center's hand(s) before the snap, then you have a dead ball foul, delay of game or encroachment (hand entered the neutral zone before the snap--remember the center must release the ball before it is a legal snap).

[mcrowder]

Extremely interesting interpretation there... does this imply also that you don't let the linemen move until the center releases the ball? I kind of doubt that, or you'd have illegal procedure on every play, but if you truly interpret the snap that way, you can't let the OL move either.

Also interesting is that this difference is published as a difference between FED and NCAA in numerous places.

I think you may want to revisit this interpretation or discuss with a higher-up. No offense meant.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Extremely interesting interpretation there... does this imply also that you don't let the linemen move until the center releases the ball? I kind of doubt that, or you'd have illegal procedure on every play, but if you truly interpret the snap that way, you can't let the OL move either.

Also interesting is that this difference is published as a difference between FED and NCAA in numerous places.

I think you may want to revisit this interpretation or discuss with a higher-up. No offense meant.

The movement of the ball in a snap signals the start of the play but you do not have a live ball or play until the center releases the ball. Not implying that linemen can't move, they can move as soon as the ball moves backwards but any interference with the legal snap AND release of the ball is a dead ball foul.

[mcrowder]

What rule are you using to get to this interp? Linemen are penalized 5 yards if they move before the snap, right? The "snap" being the same time that the defense can enter the NZ, right?

Seems you're contradicting yourself here.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by mcrowder
What rule are you using to get to this interp? Linemen are penalized 5 yards if they move before the snap, right? The "snap" being the same time that the defense can enter the NZ, right?

Seems you're contradicting yourself here.

You missed the first part of the snap rule. The snap "begins" when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. Interpretation: When the snapper moves the ball, this signals the start of a play--movement allowed.
Art 3. The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or any player. Interpretation: This completes a legal snap.

Section 1, Art 3. A snap shall, if elected, put the ball in play when a free kick is not specified. Interpretation: If the center does not move the ball backward and release the ball (snap) then the ball never becomes live.

Linemen can move when the offense or center signals the start of a play (beginning of a snap).

I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot but I don't see where anything I have said is contradicting.

[BktBallRef]

As much as you would like to think otherwise Derock, there's nothing illegal about the defense swatting at the ball after the snapper moves it. No such rule, case play, or interp exists. That's even more obvious when it's illegal in NCAA and it's listed as a rule difference between NFHS and NCAA. Twist it however you like, but your interpretation is wrong.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
As much as you would like to think otherwise Derock, there's nothing illegal about the defense swatting at the ball after the snapper moves it. No such rule, case play, or interp exists. That's even more obvious when it's illegal in NCAA and it's listed as a rule difference between NFHS and NCAA. Twist it however you like, but your interpretation is wrong.

Wow! Am I the only one who interprets the rules I mentioned as it being illegal for the defense to swat the ball from the center's hands after he moves it?

Out of curiousity, what call do you make if this occurs in a game??

[James Neil]

Originally posted by Derock2004

Wow! Am I the only one who interprets the rules I mentioned as it being illegal for the defense to swat the ball from the center's hands after he moves it?

Out of curiousity, what call do you make if this occurs in a game?? [/B]

Yes Drock, you are the only one who interprets this as illegal. But no surprise here as you've been making up your own rules since you first started posting here. And what are you curious about? THERE IS NO CALL TO BE MADE! This is legal no matter how you twist the rule.

[Derock2004]

Originally posted by James Neil

Yes Drock, you are the only one who interprets this as illegal. But no surprise here as you've been making up your own rules since you first started posting here. And what are you curious about? THERE IS NO CALL TO BE MADE! This is legal no matter how you twist the rule.

[/B]

Wow! I can not believe this. How can you say this is a legal play? If this comes down to an opinionated or judgement rule, I think the rules I posted earlier suggest you can not do that. Every situation in the game of football is not going to be clearly spelled out for you as a rule in the rule and case books but you should be able to use everything you know about the game of football and derive to some kind of call when it is not clearly covered. How about the unfair acts rule, section 9, art 3 which states...Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the referee, tends to make a travesty of the game. If the offense can't even snap the ball because the nose tackle keeps swiping the ball from his hands, I would say this is definitely an unfair act. By rules of Putting the Ball in Play and Snapping definition, the Nose is preventing the offense from putting the ball in play. If you make no call this could go on repeatedly without getting a play off. This has to be a dead ball foul! Now its ok if you disagree but in order to convince me otherwise I need to see some rules that say or even suggest that I am wrong.

[cowbyfan1]

Derock the play is legal. You are contridicting yourself. If the linemen can move as soon as the ball is moved for the snap, that means the defense can reach in and knock the ball away. Legal all day in Fed ball and is not in NCAA.
The ball becomes live with the snap. The snap starts the second the ball is moved to make a snap. It only becomes a dead ball illegal snap (false start)if the ball is not released by the center. In this case the offense did not start the play as they are required to. The defense has not such restrictions. They only need to be onside (out of the neutral zone) at the "start of the snap".

[Exkalybr]

So from what everyone here is saying, the defense can actually swat the ball during the snap in NFHS play? So if you have a kid who is quick with his hands at the nose position, he could do this all day to the offense and not get a penalty? I find that hard to fathom but I did look in the rule book also and found no mention of this play by the defense as being illegal. Can someone clarify the NFHS ruling for me please?

[jjrye22]

Originally posted by Derock2004

Art 3. The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or any player. Interpretation: This completes a legal snap.

Hi Derock,

A question for you.
If the snapper does all the motions of the snap and the ball slips out before he gives it over to the QB what do you have? Live ball backwards pass right?

So what difference does it make to you if the snapper's hand slips on the ball and it stays live (giving the D a chance to recover), or a D slaps his hand and it slips.
Would you have a problem with a blitz that was perfectly timed and the LB crosses the NZ just as the ball starts moving. He has some speed and hits the snapper before the handover to the QB is finished. Bad snap - are you going to rule this a dead ball foul? No, the LB messed up the coordination between snapper and QB.
Or the same situation in shot gun... We are not going to blow it dead if the snap is bad because the snapper got hit while snapping - heck there is a LIVE BALL foul for that in scrimage kick formation.

James

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Exkalybr
So from what everyone here is saying, the defense can actually swat the ball during the snap in NFHS play? So if you have a kid who is quick with his hands at the nose position, he could do this all day to the offense and not get a penalty? I find that hard to fathom but I did look in the rule book also and found no mention of this play by the defense as being illegal. Can someone clarify the NFHS ruling for me please?

Partner, the entire thread, with the exception of Derock's posts, clarify the ruling.