Nose to Nose

[iref4him]

I was watching a boys vasity game last night (at my daughter's school) on my night off from calling. Midway in the 2nd quarter, there is a large slap at halfcourt - it was hard to tell if the defensive player (B1) hit the offensive player's (A1's) hand while holding the ball or hit his arm. A1 throws an elbow and misses. The Trail official calls a player control foul. Both coaches go ballistic. Team B's coach wants a technical for throwing the elbow and missing. Team A's coach wants the slap on the arm called. BOth coaches are at the scorer's table complaining. The Trail official and Team B's coach got nose to nose and started to vehemently disagree with each other. It appeared to last 30 seconds or so. Then the Trail official blows his whistle calls a 'T' on Team B's coach, who now must be restrained. The assistants get him to the bench.

At halftime, the official said he had no choice but to 'T' him up. I asked him why did you not just walk away. He said no coach is going to push him around. I ask the other 2 officials why did they not go rescue their partner. They said they thought he had everything under control and the coached deserved it. I said he may have, but going nose to nose with a coach never looks good. Any thoughts??

[jmaellis]

Originally Posted by iref4him

I was watching a boys vasity game last night (at my daughter's school) on my night off from calling. Midway in the 2nd quarter, there is a large slap at halfcourt - it was hard to tell if the defensive player (B1) hit the offensive player's (A1's) hand while holding the ball or hit his arm. A1 throws an elbow and misses. The Trail official calls a player control foul. Both coaches go ballistic. Team B's coach wants a technical for throwing the elbow and missing. Team A's coach wants the slap on the arm called. BOth coaches are at the scorer's table complaining. The Trail official and Team B's coach got nose to nose and started to vehemently disagree with each other. It appeared to last 30 seconds or so. Then the Trail official blows his whistle calls a 'T' on Team B's coach, who now must be restrained. The assistants get him to the bench.

At halftime, the official said he had no choice but to 'T' him up. I asked him why did you not just walk away. He said no coach is going to push him around. I ask the other 2 officials why did they not go rescue their partner. They said they thought he had everything under control and the coached deserved it. I said he may have, but going nose to nose with a coach never looks good. Any thoughts??

Since A1's elbow missed, can a PC foul be called in this case? Wouldn't it be (on the low end) a violation for excessive elbow(s), or a T (on the high end) for the fighting/unsporting conduct ... maybe even a flagarant T depending on how hard the elbow was thrown and/or where it was aimed?

[tmp44]

Yea....never officiate w/ those three.

1) Trail misapplied the elbow rule by calling a PC foul because no contact was made. This is either an elbow violation or a flagrant "missed punch" type situation.

2) Nose-to-nose for 30 seconds? Nothing more to say than WOW.

3) The other two idiots who did not help the Trail, or at least get him the he!! away from the coach are just as responsible for the technical as the Trail who blew the play to begin with is.

4) If Coach A was out of the coaching box, at the scorer's table, arguing the call, why wasn't he given a technical too?

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

Since A1's elbow missed, can a PC foul be called in this case? Wouldn't it be (on the low end) a violation for excessive elbow(s), or a T (on the high end) for the fighting/unsporting conduct ... maybe even a flagarant T depending on how hard the elbow was thrown and/or where it was aimed?

Beat me to it!!!

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by iref4him

I was watching a boys vasity game last night (at my daughter's school) on my night off from calling. Midway in the 2nd quarter, there is a large slap at halfcourt - it was hard to tell if the defensive player (B1) hit the offensive player's (A1's) hand while holding the ball or hit his arm. A1 throws an elbow and misses. The Trail official calls a player control foul. Both coaches go ballistic. Team B's coach wants a technical for throwing the elbow and missing. Team A's coach wants the slap on the arm called. BOth coaches are at the scorer's table complaining. The Trail official and Team B's coach got nose to nose and started to vehemently disagree with each other. It appeared to last 30 seconds or so. Then the Trail official blows his whistle calls a 'T' on Team B's coach, who now must be restrained. The assistants get him to the bench.

At halftime, the official said he had no choice but to 'T' him up. I asked him why did you not just walk away. He said no coach is going to push him around. I ask the other 2 officials why did they not go rescue their partner. They said they thought he had everything under control and the coached deserved it. I said he may have, but going nose to nose with a coach never looks good. Any thoughts??

Hard to comment without seeing it or hearing the dialogue. C and lead probably didn't have enough time to get there initially and didn't want the situation to appear bigger than it was. Thirty seconds does seem like a long time though. Did the T make the game better? Did things calm down? I assume you knew the crew and were in the locker room at half.

Personally, I don't want other officials coming in on our halftime. There are exceptions of course.

From your description, I'd like to think I'd just ring him up without the emotion.
Had this coach been on the edge the whole half? Had he been given a stop sign?

I wasn't there, so It's hard to make a value judgement sitting at my keyboard.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by iref4him

The Trail official calls a player control foul. Both coaches go ballistic. Team B's coach wants a technical for throwing the elbow and missing. Team A's coach wants the slap on the arm called. Both coaches are at the scorer's table complaining.

Any thoughts??

Right there is where it goes downhill. There is nowayinhell both coaches should be allowed to be out of their box complaining. You tell both of them to immediately get back in their boxes. That's their warning. If neither complies, technical foul. You do not discuss the play with either of them in front of the table. And yes, both partners should be there to each escort a coach back to where they belong. If the calling official then wants to answer questions from either coach, he can go to the edge of the box and do so. Do not let the coaches set the ground rules in any dispute.

As for the call.....
1) Can't comment on the slap because I didn't see it. Sound doth not make a foul.
2) Re: the elbow....you cannot have a personal foul without contact. Your choices are a violation or a technical foul for an unsporting act.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by fullor30

C and lead probably didn't have enough time to get there initially.

I think even Jurassic could get to midcourt in 30 seconds.

[fullor30]

I know you'll be shocked but I agree with your handling of it, especially the warning to both coaches, that sets the tone and they both have been visibly warned.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I think even Jurassic could get to midcourt in 30 seconds.

Even from my position of being the little ugly black guy in the hat in the front row......

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Even from my position of being the little ugly black guy in the hat in the front row......

I thought he only called your hat ugly.

But thanks for the additional clarification.

[Ignats75]

Yeah, but with his short little TRex arms, he wouldn't be able to steer one of the coaches away from his partner.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Yeah, but with his short little TRex arms, he wouldn't be able to steer one of the coaches away from his partner.

Wouldn't have to. I'd bite his f***ing head off instead.

[Red_Killian]

Remember in these volatile type of situations, you need to help your partner out but you as the crew need to keep an eye on the players also. In the type of situation described in the OP be on the lookout for further actions by the players, especially with the coaches going beserk, too. A1 may follow up on the missed elbow or B1 may take exception to the elbow. A lot easier with a 3-person crew than a 2-person crew.

[iref4him]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Hard to comment without seeing it or hearing the dialogue. C and lead probably didn't have enough time to get there initially and didn't want the situation to appear bigger than it was. Thirty seconds does seem like a long time though. Did the T make the game better? Did things calm down? I assume you knew the crew and were in the locker room at half.

Personally, I don't want other officials coming in on our halftime. There are exceptions of course.

From your description, I'd like to think I'd just ring him up without the emotion.
Had this coach been on the edge the whole half? Had he been given a stop sign?

I wasn't there, so It's hard to make a value judgement sitting at my keyboard.

Seriously, It was a long time. It looked like a pro-baseball manager and ump going at it. The 'T' energized Team A and they went on a 16-4 run.

The schools around her don't take care of officials. SO I brought the crew bottles of water at half time. I know how nice it is when someone does that for me. SO I was just being nice.

The game wasa cross town rival so it was heated. There was no stop sign given to either coach. It just erupted very quickly. Again, they went nose to nose for a very long time. I kept wondering when will his partners help him out.

[sj]

Just curious but what were his partners doing? Were they watching the kids or just standing there watching the show so to speak?