6 on court question, after

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-1-6: A team shall not have more than five members participating simultaneously.

Penalized if discovered while being violated.

The gray area is the definition of participating. Some say there is no penalty if the discovery is made during a dead ball. Others, myself included, disagree.

I disagree with your disagreement.

How can a team member be participating during a dead ball? This must be noticed by an official while the rule is being violated, not after, and for that to happen the ball must be live.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How can a team member be participating during a dead ball?

When a team is setting up for the next play, I consider that to be participating.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

When a team is setting up for the next play, I consider that to be participating.

The NFHS does not. Do you want examples of "participating" from the NFHS books?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS does not. Do you want examples of "participating" from the NFHS books?

Yeah, let's hear 'em.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS does not. Do you want examples of "participating" from the NFHS books?

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yeah, let's hear 'em.

The NFHS uses the word "participate" in a couple of ways. Unfortunately, the usage is not precise and one has to know from context what the NFHS is saying. It basically means to become a player or to engage in game activity. Sitting on the bench or checking in at the scorer's table definitely do not qualify as participation.

However, coming out onto the floor in an attempt to enter the game is a gray area. Sometimes it qualifies and sometimes it doesn't. The difference comes down to whether or not the entry was legal. If it was then, the team member is a player and has participated. If not, then the team member is NOT a player and has not participated.

There are several examples in both the rules and case books involving participation, but the most pertinent one for the situation we are discussing is the following:

10.5.3 SITUATION:

A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game.
RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

[BillyMac]

Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

That is probably the latest that one could assess the technical, but the infraction must be recognized well before that. Your statement makes it sound as if the official can recognize and penalize the offense during the dead ball period. That's simply not the case.

[newera21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: Since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS uses the word "participate" in a couple of ways. Unfortunately, the usage is not precise and one has to know from context what the NFHS is saying. It basically means to become a player or to engage in game activity. Sitting on the bench or checking in at the scorer's table definitely do not qualify as participation.

However, coming out onto the floor in an attempt to enter the game is a gray area. Sometimes it qualifies and sometimes it doesn't. The difference comes down to whether or not the entry was legal. If it was then, the team member is a player and has participated. If not, then the team member is NOT a player and has not participated.

4-34-5: (again) If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-34-5: (again) If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

My comment was in the context of BEFORE the ball becomes live.

Also, there is a cap on the number of players. It cannot ever exceed five.

Case Play 10.1.6 is an example of sloppy writing. The author used imprecise terminology.

[just another ref]

More food for thought. Team A has 6 players on the court. B1 commits a foul on A1. A1 takes exception and a fight breaks out. All 6 players from team A participate in the fight. Does the coach get an indirect T in this case?
I don't see how.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

More food for thought. Team A has 6 players on the court. B1 commits a foul on A1. A1 takes exception and a fight breaks out. All 6 players from team A participate in the fight. Does the coach get an indirect T in this case?
I don't see how.

First one must understand the nuances of the rules.

1. It is illegal for a team to have more than five TEAM MEMBERS participating at the same time.

2. 4-34-1 defines the term "player." "A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission."

Now we can tackle your situation. The team doesn't have six players on the court. That is impossible by definition. It has five players and one other team member.

Therefore, the coach would indeed be charged with one indirect technical foul for the team member who participated in the fight and was not a player.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Now we can tackle your situation. The team doesn't have six players on the court. That is impossible by definition. It has five players and one other team member.

4-34-3: A substitute becomes a player when he legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

So which of the 6 guys on the court is not a player?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-34-3: A substitute becomes a player when he legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

So which of the 6 guys on the court is not a player?

The player the sub was supposed to replace.

But, what does it really matter? It's a team T.