6 on court question, after

[mutantducky]

If there are 6 players for team A on the court while the ball is live and the refs don't notice, can they still call a Tech after the player has left the court. Say A1 is running off the side out of bounds or going through the stands? I suppose you could give a T for not being in the bench area.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

If there are 6 players for team A on the court while the ball is live and the refs don't notice, can they still call a Tech after the player has left the court.

10-1-6: A team shall not have more than five members participating simultaneously.

Penalized if discovered while being violated.

The gray area is the definition of participating. Some say there is no penalty if the discovery is made during a dead ball. Others, myself included, disagree.

[shishstripes]

I honestly hate 6 player techs. 95+% of these situations could be handled by officials paying attention and communicating, hold up the game until you are sure you have 5 players on each side. 1 comes on, 1 goes off. If many come on, count your players.

10-1-6 Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Penalized if discovered while being violated. If coach is telling player to get off and that individual is not participating in the play, let them run to the bench. We should have made sure they got off before giving the ball to the thrower anyways.

If the player runs into the stands are they trying to keep from participating and didn't want to go through the play and/or took the quickest exit off the floor?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-1-6: A team shall not have more than five members participating simultaneously.

Penalized if discovered while being violated.

The gray area is the definition of participating. Some say there is no penalty if the discovery is made during a dead ball. Others, myself included, disagree.

I disagree with your disagreement.

How can a team member be participating during a dead ball? This must be noticed by an official while the rule is being violated, not after, and for that to happen the ball must be live.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by shishstripes

We should have made sure they got off before giving the ball to the thrower anyways.

True.

Originally Posted by shishstripes

If coach is telling player to get off and that individual is not participating in the play, let them run to the bench.

However, you have already made one mistake by not doing what you wrote above. Don't compound the mistake by failing to properly penalize the infraction. That only makes the situation worse. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How can a team member be participating during a dead ball?

When a team is setting up for the next play, I consider that to be participating.

[mutantducky]

I asked two refs about this and they both gave different answers as well. One thing I'm learning is that the High school rulebook isn't exactly clear but I guess that's part of the fun(frustration)

kind of a compromise
edit- I suppose of course best to catch it right away, and if a player was on briefly and not caught by the refs and then hurried off the court without interfering then perhaps let the T go.
But I think I agree with the two wrongs and you can't ignore the violation and perhaps I would call a T in cases where I know for certain the player has been on the court for a length of time where it could affect the play. Even if the player is off the court. lots of grey area there but...oh well.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

When a team is setting up for the next play, I consider that to be participating.

The NFHS does not. Do you want examples of "participating" from the NFHS books?

[just another ref]

More food for thought. Team A has 6 players on the court. B1 commits a foul on A1. A1 takes exception and a fight breaks out. All 6 players from team A participate in the fight. Does the coach get an indirect T in this case?
I don't see how.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS does not. Do you want examples of "participating" from the NFHS books?

Yeah, let's hear 'em.

[shishstripes]

Not arguing with you Nevada, just reading into your conclusion and picking your brain, you would say then that just being on the court constitutes participation?

I will not allow my partner to put the ball in play with too many players on the floor, cannot say that he/she will pay as close attention though.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by shishstripes

Not arguing with you Nevada, just reading into your conclusion and picking your brain, you would say then that just being on the court constitutes participation?

I will not allow my partner to put the ball in play with too many players on the floor, cannot say that he/she will pay as close attention though.

Being on the court DURING A LIVE BALL or being the thrower once the ball is placed at his disposal constitutes participation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

More food for thought. Team A has 6 players on the court. B1 commits a foul on A1. A1 takes exception and a fight breaks out. All 6 players from team A participate in the fight. Does the coach get an indirect T in this case?
I don't see how.

First one must understand the nuances of the rules.

1. It is illegal for a team to have more than five TEAM MEMBERS participating at the same time.

2. 4-34-1 defines the term "player." "A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission."

Now we can tackle your situation. The team doesn't have six players on the court. That is impossible by definition. It has five players and one other team member.

Therefore, the coach would indeed be charged with one indirect technical foul for the team member who participated in the fight and was not a player.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS does not. Do you want examples of "participating" from the NFHS books?

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yeah, let's hear 'em.

The NFHS uses the word "participate" in a couple of ways. Unfortunately, the usage is not precise and one has to know from context what the NFHS is saying. It basically means to become a player or to engage in game activity. Sitting on the bench or checking in at the scorer's table definitely do not qualify as participation.

However, coming out onto the floor in an attempt to enter the game is a gray area. Sometimes it qualifies and sometimes it doesn't. The difference comes down to whether or not the entry was legal. If it was then, the team member is a player and has participated. If not, then the team member is NOT a player and has not participated.

There are several examples in both the rules and case books involving participation, but the most pertinent one for the situation we are discussing is the following:

10.5.3 SITUATION:

A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game.
RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

[BillyMac]

Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.