6 on court question, after

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

When a team is setting up for the next play, I consider that to be participating.

The NFHS does not. Do you want examples of "participating" from the NFHS books?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS does not. Do you want examples of "participating" from the NFHS books?

Yeah, let's hear 'em.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS does not. Do you want examples of "participating" from the NFHS books?

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yeah, let's hear 'em.

The NFHS uses the word "participate" in a couple of ways. Unfortunately, the usage is not precise and one has to know from context what the NFHS is saying. It basically means to become a player or to engage in game activity. Sitting on the bench or checking in at the scorer's table definitely do not qualify as participation.

However, coming out onto the floor in an attempt to enter the game is a gray area. Sometimes it qualifies and sometimes it doesn't. The difference comes down to whether or not the entry was legal. If it was then, the team member is a player and has participated. If not, then the team member is NOT a player and has not participated.

There are several examples in both the rules and case books involving participation, but the most pertinent one for the situation we are discussing is the following:

10.5.3 SITUATION:

A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game.
RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

[BillyMac]

Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

That is probably the latest that one could assess the technical, but the infraction must be recognized well before that. Your statement makes it sound as if the official can recognize and penalize the offense during the dead ball period. That's simply not the case.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is probably the latest that one could assess the technical, but the infraction must be recognized well before that. Your statement makes it sound as if the official can recognize and penalize the offense during the dead ball period. That's simply not the case.

Nevadaref: Good point. When I made my study guide, I had some concerns about this wording. I tried to adhere to the language in the rulebook, the casebook, or annual interpretations, as much as possible. Can you, or anybody else, please suggest a better way of wording this, trying to stick to language already in the rulebook, or casebook, as much as possible?

Here's how it looks now:
Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

[derwil]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

OK question - I had a game last Friday night - two pathetic teams GV. I'm at lead underneath table side when the ball goes OOBs at the table. Team B subs and I see C coming over taking care of it. I watch the players in the post mulling around then catch the ball being inbounded from the corner of my eye. Girls on team B start looking around at each other....pass the ball a couple times....then one of them runs off the court to the bench. Crap - 6 players!

Obviously, neither C nor T counted prior to putting the ball at the disposal of the inbounder. I didn't notice what was going on until the player was off the court on the bench.

Could/should I have a T in that situation, even though it was not noticed until after the occurance? I had a pep talk with the 'ol partners between quarters and told them to retrieve their heads from their nether regions, but I'm still miffed that such a silly thing happened in my game.

[newera21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: Since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by newera21

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: Since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

No doubt it is too late in this case. I think this also applies during the game. If the officials do not actually observe 6 players, they can't take the word of anyone else. But, if I observe 6 players on the court, then the whistle blows, then the actual count takes place during a dead ball, I have no problem calling the technical at this time.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS uses the word "participate" in a couple of ways. Unfortunately, the usage is not precise and one has to know from context what the NFHS is saying. It basically means to become a player or to engage in game activity. Sitting on the bench or checking in at the scorer's table definitely do not qualify as participation.

However, coming out onto the floor in an attempt to enter the game is a gray area. Sometimes it qualifies and sometimes it doesn't. The difference comes down to whether or not the entry was legal. If it was then, the team member is a player and has participated. If not, then the team member is NOT a player and has not participated.

4-34-5: (again) If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-34-5: (again) If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

My comment was in the context of BEFORE the ball becomes live.

Also, there is a cap on the number of players. It cannot ever exceed five.

Case Play 10.1.6 is an example of sloppy writing. The author used imprecise terminology.