What do you have... Strange play

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

That's ridiculous.

I agree

Can't call the same player for BOTH a personal AND a technical on the same play!!

I agree, but if these were the signals that were made, according to several in other threads, a preliminary signal commits an official to that particular call.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If two signals are given, then two fouls must be reported.......
Neither official is permitted to simply drop his signal and walk away.

This isn't like a blarge at all.

We have two officials who have signaled two different fouls on the same play, which by definition cannot occur on the same play, yet according to a certain case play we, depending on ones particular interpretation of this case play,
may/must report both fouls. Sounds eerily similar to me.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-4-7d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.


This is more than enough time to consider this ball available. The ball is live. Call it a personal foul.

I agree. Three bounces of the ball and two or three seconds elapsing is more than enough time. The ball is live. This is a common foul for charging. Award the bonus if necessary in an NFHS game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you call a personal, he has no authority to set aside your call. Double whistle disagreement, according to all the blarge people, I guess you have to charge both.

Don't be .

You are twisting a simple situation into something that it isn't.

That concept is not applicable here.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The ball is not live until the moment the official determines the ball is at the disposal of the thrower; which not coincidentally is the same exact moment he starts his count.

Fixed it for ya.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're preaching to the choir here, my friend.

One person doesn't make it a choir. As much as I dislike the case ruling, I'd follow it in a game. I couldn't justify anything else. It's never happened to me, but I could see it happening considering how we tend to signal our blocks/PC fouls around here.

And the blarge has NOTHING to do with this play at all. Trying to make it so appears somewhat ignorant, IMO. There are plenty of times opposite signals could be given and we have to decide between the two -- the blarge just isn't one of them, BY CASE PLAY.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

As much as I dislike the case ruling, I'd follow it in a game. I couldn't justify anything else. It's never happened to me. There are plenty of times opposite signals could be given and we have to decide between the two, the blarge just isn't one of them, BY CASE PLAY.

I agree. I too have never seen a blarge in twenty-eight years, but because I have seen it discussed here, on exams, on other forums, and in the case play cited, it must have happened somewhere (but never in Northern Utah), sometime. If it ever happens in my game, and my mechanics, and a good pregame, for some reason don't prevent it, I'm calling it by the book.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

One person doesn't make it a choir. As much as I dislike the case ruling, I'd follow it in a game. I couldn't justify anything else. It's never happened to me, but I could see it happening considering how we tend to signal our blocks/PC fouls around here.

And the blarge has NOTHING to do with this play at all. Trying to make it so appears somewhat ignorant, IMO. There are plenty of times opposite signals could be given and we have to decide between the two -- the blarge just isn't one of them, BY CASE PLAY.

This is kinda the point I was trying to make. The ONLY reason the blarge play can be a double foul is because there is a case play, not because a signal is irreversible.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is kinda the point I was trying to make. The ONLY reason the blarge play can be a double foul is because there is a case play, not because a signal is irreversible.

I don't think anyone was arguing that, though.

I think this play could involve the C and T talking, although if I was the T and the C called a charging foul (not team control, since it's during a throw in), I would let it go. If asked, I would support the call, saying that the ball was available to the throw-in team, whether or not I'd started the count.

There is such a thing as a punishment fitting the crime and calling an intentional technical foul here does not seem to fit the situation, at all.

Personally, I do not know why the ruling bodies cling to the notion that the ball is dead between the goal and the ball being made available to the teams. Changing this would only change one thing, in my mind -- the right for the scoring team to call a time out in this interval and changing that wouldn't break my heart in the least bit.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Fixed it for ya.

Maybe, but you eliminated my sarcasm.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is a time when many officials are too generous in waiting to start the count. If all A's players are 50' away I think most of us will hold the count briefly, especially if one is hustling to get the ball. The problem I see is when B scores and presses and A is deliberately slow to pick up the ball, trying to allow themselves extra time to set up the press break, or sitting on a lead in the last minute of the game.

Most, maybe, but not me. I give them "reasonable time" to pick it up and then I start counting. I start about 1 or 2 a game before the player picks it up.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Skarecrow

My opinion only, but the two must talk it out--quickly--and the new Trail with the count would win out....his count, his call....

The trail is the only one who knows if the count had started yet. If the L calls the foul, it's up to the T to make sure it's the proper type (pesonal or technical).

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Maybe, but you eliminated my sarcasm.

Well, it was unmarked.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Well, it was unmarked.

That's the best kind.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The trail is the only one who knows if the count had started yet. If the L calls the foul, it's up to the T to make sure it's the proper type (pesonal or technical).

I gotta say, I think this is one case where you could be completely correct in the rule and completely wrong on the court. I can't imagine this being a technical foul, ever.

But hey, if we all agreed on this kind of thing there'd be little need for forums like this.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I gotta say, I think this is one case where you could be completely correct in the rule and completely wrong on the court. I can't imagine this being a technical foul, ever.

But hey, if we all agreed on this kind of thing there'd be little need for forums like this.

I actually agree with you, mostly; but it depends on how close she was to the end line. If this happens at the half court line, and A1 is the nearest of her team to the ball; hard not to call it a T. I don't think it would be a hard sell, either.