The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 08:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Completely different play -- there's a difference between one team being confused and both teams being confused.
So Bob, what would you have done on this play?
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 08:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
What's more, if I'm getting the defending team out of the huddle, I'll tell them which way we're going, too (white ball coming this way, for example). If I'm the R, I'm pointing before the teams are set and pointing again before putting it in play and being quite vocal about it.

After we tell the teams a few times which way we're going I'm also going to be the lead in the proper frontcourt -- I'm not part of any kind of trickery like this.
Ok, so what would you do in the play in question. I'm not really looking for ways to avoid it in the future as I already point the direction and line up correctly, even if the team says they are running the trick play.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 09:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texref View Post
So Bob, what would you have done on this play?
As soon as I recognized it (unless a try was imminent) I would have stopped them and pointed the correct direction.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 11:10pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
So what you are saying is thatif team A inbounds on the base line in their backcourt after a timeout, and Team B is pressing - A1 inbounds to A3 who is cutting toward the baseline and then just drives to hoop and throws toward the basket you realize that they are going the wrong way so are you going to stop it?

if you line them up right you are not responsible for what they do after that point.
The rules say which basket each team is to shoot towards with relation to their benches based on the half of play. If they're both playing incorrectly, it's your job to fix it; you have to intervene if they are both playing it incorrectly. If you don't realize it until the ball goes in the hoop, give the points to the team that made the basket and..... basically, use the case play for the same error at the beginning of the game.

If you realize it sooner, fix it. As Bob said, it's completely different than if only one team is confused. In that case, you let it play out, give the points to the team whose basket was scored in, and give the ball to the team that just put the ball in the hole for their endline throwin.

Otherwise, if both teams are confused, you'd have to call a violation on B for taking the ball out after A makes the basket in the wrong hoop. Or on A (5 seconds) if B knows what they're doing and just lets it bounce.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 11:40pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,841
Oh, how I miss the days of the center jump to start each quarter (NFHS) and each half (NCAA).

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 02, 2008, 03:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
Before I hand the ball off to the thrower starting a period, I ALWAYS point the direction ("White ball going this direction" *insert pointing finger that way*). I do it just before I hand the ball off.

However if the thrower put the ball in play into the team's BC, there is nothing to be done. I don't believe there is anything the official can do until there is a dead ball (ie made basket, violation, etc). If they inbound the ball into their FC and they run to their BC, we have a BC violation.

Just my two cents...

-Josh
I agree with that.
This whole situation comes down to proper mechanics.

NFHS OFFICIALS MANUAL page 20-21
2.2.2B(2): Indicate color and direction, designate the throw-in spot, sound the whistle to alert players that play is about to begin, place the ball at the thrower's disposal.

If you did all of that, and the teams go the wrong direction, then there is no reason to stop play until a foul or violation is committed, a held ball occurs, or a goal is scored.

If the proper mechanics were followed, as Texref has indicated in one of his posts, then simply stop play, score the goal for Team B, and allow Team A an end line throw-in.

If the proper mechanics were not followed, then the officials can be faulted for causing confusion and the teams going the wrong directions, so it would be proper to stop play, score the goal for Team A, turn the teams around, and take the ball to the other end of the court for an end line throw-in for Team B.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 02, 2008, 07:36am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I agree with that.
This whole situation comes down to proper mechanics.

NFHS OFFICIALS MANUAL page 20-21
2.2.2B(2): Indicate color and direction, designate the throw-in spot, sound the whistle to alert players that play is about to begin, place the ball at the thrower's disposal.

If you did all of that, and the teams go the wrong direction, then there is no reason to stop play until a foul or violation is committed, a held ball occurs, or a goal is scored.

If the proper mechanics were followed, as Texref has indicated in one of his posts, then simply stop play, score the goal for Team B, and allow Team A an end line throw-in.

If the proper mechanics were not followed, then the officials can be faulted for causing confusion and the teams going the wrong directions, so it would be proper to stop play, score the goal for Team A, turn the teams around, and take the ball to the other end of the court for an end line throw-in for Team B.
4 words: Always listen to Bob.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 02, 2008, 08:12am
Huck Finn
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
4 words: Always listen to Bob.
One word: why?

Don't we have enough to worry about without worrying about a confused team or two?

If the proper mechanics were followed - and team A has been smart enough to build a 50 point lead - why should the official coach both teams to go the right direction? One thing I find hard to believe is that neither coach realized what was going on, got his teams attention and told his/her players to go the correct direction.

This is something I may discuss with my crews in the next couple of games, but the message will be to use he proper mechanics and leave the coaching to the coaches.
__________________
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 02, 2008, 10:00am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ohio, cincinnati
Posts: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
NFHS OFFICIALS MANUAL page 20-21
2.2.2B(2): Indicate color and direction, designate the throw-in spot, sound the whistle to alert players that play is about to begin, place the ball at the thrower's disposal.

If you did all of that, and the teams go the wrong direction, then there is no reason to stop play until a foul or violation is committed, a held ball occurs, or a goal is scored.

If the proper mechanics were followed, as Texref has indicated in one of his posts, then simply stop play, score the goal for Team B, and allow Team A an end line throw-in.
This is my point you can not just stop the game because it looks loke people are confused.
You have to have a dead ball to stop the play, then you have something to fall back on but you can not just stop the game you have no reason by rule to stop stop the game just because a team is going the wrong way.
__________________
New and improved: if it's new it's not improved; if it's improved it's not new.
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 02, 2008, 07:52pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,863
Do You Miss Polio Also ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Oh, how I miss the days of the center jump to start each quarter (NFHS) and each half (NCAA).
Go back up into your attic, and stay there.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 03:09am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Carrollton, TX
Posts: 135
Send a message via AIM to rpirtle Send a message via Yahoo to rpirtle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texref View Post
This was a varsity boys game! Team A (team ahead by about 50) put their third stringers in the game (they had 15 in the book!). They weren't roaming, they were running a play and Team B was playing defense. I don't disagree with you by giving Team B the points and Team A the ball. That is what my partner said on the floor. After the game we ran it by the other officials replacing us and the other two crews (tournament setting) that were there. They all said they would have given Team B the points and Team A the ball.
OK...now a word from the "thus-far-silent" partner in this debacle. But I wanted to first say how great all of your comments are and how much I enjoy having a place like this and people like you to help me hash this stuff out. I really appreciate all the input.

OK...as Texref stated above, this was a tournament setting...and the game was a "snoozer". All the more reason for us to stay alert and ready to act. But there were other factors that might have contributed to the way this played out. This was the 2nd day of a two-day tourney...and this game was fairly early on a Sat. morning. In addition, both teams had probably played two games the previous day. So to say that these boys were tired would be a gross understatement. And finally...the play in question unfolded very quickly. I remember the throw in to Team A's BC. But the way I remember it...Player A1 received the throw in...and all he took was a few dribbles before he pulled up. Before Texref or I could intervene the shot was away.

I guess my take on the situation is this...we knew that Team A was lining up at the wrong basket. It was not our intent to permit Team A to shoot at the wrong basket. I guess it's possible that my reaction time was slower as well...maybe I could have immediately blown the play dead when it was 1st apparent the "Hail Mary" pass was not forthcoming.

If this is the case...and my cat-like reflexes were impaired...then I'm certain it's Texref's fault. You see...Texref and I had worked a triple OT game the night before...even tho I had fully disclosed my "No OT" policy to him before the game. Guys and gals...you've got to learn to trust your partners. When they say "No overtime"...they mean NO OVERTIME...!!! But seriously, Kip...anytime, anywhere, any level...it was great working with you. And thanks again to this Forum...you guys and gals have helped me so much over the years. Keep up the great work...
__________________
I'm getting what I want...by helping others get what they want.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 06:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Carrollton, TX
Posts: 135
Send a message via AIM to rpirtle Send a message via Yahoo to rpirtle
[QUOTE=Snaqwells;554435][QUOTE=Texref;554434]
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".



If it's apparent everyone is playing backwards, blow it dead and set them straight.
I totally agree with the your comment about immediately blowing the play dead as soon as we knew they were going the wrong way. It was our intent to allow Team A the opportunity to run whatever "trick" play they wanted...even though it was surprising they might try it under these circumstances (Team A up by...well...a bunch). As Texref stated above, once we saw Team A's alignment (all 4 non-throwers in Team A's BC), I took up a position at mid-court near the table. From this position I could: 1.) Watch the non-throwers during the throw-in; and, 2.) Follow the players on any break to Team A's basket during the anticipated "Hail Mary" throw-in.

I remember still being puzzled by Team A's alignment as the throw-in was occurring. Then when the throw-in went into the BC...I remember trying to look for a different type of play. Maybe Team A was trying something different due to all the new players that had just come off the bench. Some of you may know the feeling...as an unusual or unexpected play unfolds. There's not much time to really THINK about what's happening...just that it feels really wrong.

But then Player A1 pulled up suddenly...from maybe 4 to 6 feet behind the 3-point line...and drained it. I think Texref was correct when he said that there was about 7:53 on the clock when we blew the play dead. If you estimate that the shooting motion and ball flight took up about 2 or 3 of the 7 seconds that ran off the clock...that would mean we only had about 4 or 5 seconds to figure out that Team A: 1.) Was not running the expected "Hail Mary" play; 2.) Did not have an alternate play in mind (to free up a player going toward their basket); and, 3.) Team A really was trying to go for the wrong bucket. I should have been the one to blow the play dead...

As I said previously, it 's possible that the early game might have caused my reflexes to be slower than normal and I might otherwise have been quick enough to blow the play in time. But I keep thinking about the night before...and the 3 OT's Texref and I had. Did I tell Texref...??? No, wait...I'm positive I told Texref about my no OT policy. Yes...I'm sure it's Texref's fault that this play unfolded the way it did. Whew...that was close...!!! I thought for a moment that maybe it was my fault...(JK).
__________________
I'm getting what I want...by helping others get what they want.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:54pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1