New one for me

[Texref]

Ok, I'm going to start by saying I believe that I (won't say we b/c partner didn't want to do this) got this wrong. Just wanted to see what everybody else would do. I'm also trying to justify what I did as well In any case here is the play...

Start of the 4th quarter. Team A leads by like 50 and is getting the ball. Team A lines up the wrong way, as does Team B. My partner and I don't say anything, thinking they are going to run the "trick" play of lining up backwards so they get an easy 2 points off the unsuspecting D. Team A inbounds the ball to their backcourt (Team B frontcourt) and I start my 10 second count. They dribble toward Team B basket, make 2 or 3 passes and shoot. The shot hits nothing but the bottom of the net! My partner and I kill the play. The clock is showing 7:53. Now for the fun... I relate the situation to starting the game going the wrong direction and count the 2 points for Team A and give Team B the ball at the other end correcting the wrong direction. What I'm betting everybody else will say is that Team B should get the 2 points and Team A has the throw-in anywhere along the end line. I agree with that

My logic came from the case play where both teams go the wrong direction to start the game. Rule 4-5-something (I don't have my rulebook in front of me) says that if the officials permit the teams to go the wrong direction, then all points, time consumed, etc... count as though they were scored in the correct basket. IOW, what I did. My partner and I were the only one's in the gym who knew that they had just scored at the wrong basket. Team B was playing defense and Team A made 2-3 passes prior to shooting. Although I was counting 10 seconds, I believe we permitted both teams to go the wrong direction.

Again, just wanted some other input on this. Still not 100% convinced I was wrong, but I am 97% convinced. I guess it all depends on what your definition of permit is? Oh well.

edited to add: My partner on the game also posts on this forum. I have alerted him to this and I'm sure that he will be along shortly to give his viewpoint of the play in question.

[jdw3018]

As soon as it was apparent both teams were playing the wrong way (not just lining up for a trick play), you should have blown the ball dead.

What you did by allowing them to play the wrong way was outside the rules, therefore I think you did the right thing by following the case play in which everyone believes they are going the right way.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

What you did by allowing them to play the wrong way was outside the rules, therefore I think you did the right thing by following the case play in which everyone believes they are going the right way.

First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".

If you lined up correctly and they go the wrong way, it isn't your job to stop them, what if it was a two point game and that mistake would tie the score, a tie game with seconds to play for the title of the world, for what reason by rule are you stoping the game?

If you point the correct direction and are lined up properly and the players go the wrong way - you do not have the authority by rule to stop them.

Permitting them to go the wrong way IMHO means you the official are responsible for the incorrect directions they are going.

[Texref]

[QUOTE=OHBBREF;554433]First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".

[QUOTE]

I was the R and was to the Team A backcourt side of the thrower. My partner did not go to the Team A's baseline, rather he stayed at about mid court. Not where I go, but I also don't think his position was incorrect either.

I thought about (in the future if this happens again) blowing it dead as soon as it is apparent that they believe they are going that way.

[Adam]

[QUOTE=Texref;554434][QUOTE=OHBBREF;554433]First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".

I was the R and was to the Team A backcourt side of the thrower. My partner did not go to the Team A's baseline, rather he stayed at about mid court. Not where I go, but I also don't think his position was incorrect either.

I thought about (in the future if this happens again) blowing it dead as soon as it is apparent that they believe they are going that way.

If it's apparent everyone is playing backwards, blow it dead and set them straight.

[Texref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If it's apparent everyone is playing backwards, blow it dead and set them straight.

Ok, so in the future I'll do that, but what would you have done in the situation presented?

[rpirtle]

[QUOTE=Snaqwells;554435][QUOTE=Texref;554434]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".



If it's apparent everyone is playing backwards, blow it dead and set them straight.

I totally agree with the your comment about immediately blowing the play dead as soon as we knew they were going the wrong way. It was our intent to allow Team A the opportunity to run whatever "trick" play they wanted...even though it was surprising they might try it under these circumstances (Team A up by...well...a bunch). As Texref stated above, once we saw Team A's alignment (all 4 non-throwers in Team A's BC), I took up a position at mid-court near the table. From this position I could: 1.) Watch the non-throwers during the throw-in; and, 2.) Follow the players on any break to Team A's basket during the anticipated "Hail Mary" throw-in.

I remember still being puzzled by Team A's alignment as the throw-in was occurring. Then when the throw-in went into the BC...I remember trying to look for a different type of play. Maybe Team A was trying something different due to all the new players that had just come off the bench. Some of you may know the feeling...as an unusual or unexpected play unfolds. There's not much time to really THINK about what's happening...just that it feels really wrong.

But then Player A1 pulled up suddenly...from maybe 4 to 6 feet behind the 3-point line...and drained it. I think Texref was correct when he said that there was about 7:53 on the clock when we blew the play dead. If you estimate that the shooting motion and ball flight took up about 2 or 3 of the 7 seconds that ran off the clock...that would mean we only had about 4 or 5 seconds to figure out that Team A: 1.) Was not running the expected "Hail Mary" play; 2.) Did not have an alternate play in mind (to free up a player going toward their basket); and, 3.) Team A really was trying to go for the wrong bucket. I should have been the one to blow the play dead...

As I said previously, it 's possible that the early game might have caused my reflexes to be slower than normal and I might otherwise have been quick enough to blow the play in time. But I keep thinking about the night before...and the 3 OT's Texref and I had. Did I tell Texref...??? No, wait...I'm positive I told Texref about my no OT policy. Yes...I'm sure it's Texref's fault that this play unfolded the way it did. Whew...that was close...!!! I thought for a moment that maybe it was my fault...(JK).

[OHBBREF]

[QUOTE=Texref;554434]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I thought about (in the future if this happens again) blowing it dead as soon as it is apparent that they believe they are going that way.

Again, please -site a rule, a case play or something that says after you told them the correct direction to go, that authorizes you to stop the action and prevent a team from going the wrong way?

[jdmara]

Before I hand the ball off to the thrower starting a period, I ALWAYS point the direction ("White ball going this direction" *insert pointing finger that way*). I do it just before I hand the ball off.

However if the thrower put the ball in play into the team's BC, there is nothing to be done. I don't believe there is anything the official can do until there is a dead ball (ie made basket, violation, etc). If they inbound the ball into their FC and they run to their BC, we have a BC violation.

Just my two cents...

-Josh

[Texref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Before I hand the ball off to the thrower starting a period, I ALWAYS point the direction ("White ball going this direction" *insert pointing finger that way*). I do it just before I hand the ball off.

However if the thrower put the ball in play into the team's BC, there is nothing to be done. I don't believe there is anything the official can do until there is a dead ball (ie made basket, violation, etc). If they inbound the ball into their FC and they run to their BC, we have a BC violation.

Just my two cents...

-Josh

I do the same thing. Unfortunately they did not throw the ball into their front court, which is what usually happens when lined up for the trick play, they threw it in their backcourt and proceeded to play there. They got the shot off prior to a 10 second backcourt count.

I believe that what we can stop play and not permit them to continue the wrong direction(s) if it is obvious, as it was in this case, that everybody is going the wrong direction. If we don't stop it and know it, then I believe, 3% worth anyways , that we have permitted both teams to play in the wrong direction and therefore my ruling on the floor was correct.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Before I hand the ball off to the thrower starting a period, I ALWAYS point the direction ("White ball going this direction" *insert pointing finger that way*). I do it just before I hand the ball off.

However if the thrower put the ball in play into the team's BC, there is nothing to be done. I don't believe there is anything the official can do until there is a dead ball (ie made basket, violation, etc). If they inbound the ball into their FC and they run to their BC, we have a BC violation.

Just my two cents...

-Josh

What's more, if I'm getting the defending team out of the huddle, I'll tell them which way we're going, too (white ball coming this way, for example). If I'm the R, I'm pointing before the teams are set and pointing again before putting it in play and being quite vocal about it.

After we tell the teams a few times which way we're going I'm also going to be the lead in the proper frontcourt -- I'm not part of any kind of trickery like this.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Before I hand the ball off to the thrower starting a period, I ALWAYS point the direction ("White ball going this direction" *insert pointing finger that way*). I do it just before I hand the ball off.

However if the thrower put the ball in play into the team's BC, there is nothing to be done. I don't believe there is anything the official can do until there is a dead ball (ie made basket, violation, etc). If they inbound the ball into their FC and they run to their BC, we have a BC violation.

Just my two cents...

-Josh

I agree with that.
This whole situation comes down to proper mechanics.

NFHS OFFICIALS MANUAL page 20-21
2.2.2B(2): Indicate color and direction, designate the throw-in spot, sound the whistle to alert players that play is about to begin, place the ball at the thrower's disposal.

If you did all of that, and the teams go the wrong direction, then there is no reason to stop play until a foul or violation is committed, a held ball occurs, or a goal is scored.

If the proper mechanics were followed, as Texref has indicated in one of his posts, then simply stop play, score the goal for Team B, and allow Team A an end line throw-in.

If the proper mechanics were not followed, then the officials can be faulted for causing confusion and the teams going the wrong directions, so it would be proper to stop play, score the goal for Team A, turn the teams around, and take the ball to the other end of the court for an end line throw-in for Team B.