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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:00pm
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New one for me

Ok, I'm going to start by saying I believe that I (won't say we b/c partner didn't want to do this) got this wrong. Just wanted to see what everybody else would do. I'm also trying to justify what I did as well In any case here is the play...

Start of the 4th quarter. Team A leads by like 50 and is getting the ball. Team A lines up the wrong way, as does Team B. My partner and I don't say anything, thinking they are going to run the "trick" play of lining up backwards so they get an easy 2 points off the unsuspecting D. Team A inbounds the ball to their backcourt (Team B frontcourt) and I start my 10 second count. They dribble toward Team B basket, make 2 or 3 passes and shoot. The shot hits nothing but the bottom of the net! My partner and I kill the play. The clock is showing 7:53. Now for the fun... I relate the situation to starting the game going the wrong direction and count the 2 points for Team A and give Team B the ball at the other end correcting the wrong direction. What I'm betting everybody else will say is that Team B should get the 2 points and Team A has the throw-in anywhere along the end line. I agree with that

My logic came from the case play where both teams go the wrong direction to start the game. Rule 4-5-something (I don't have my rulebook in front of me) says that if the officials permit the teams to go the wrong direction, then all points, time consumed, etc... count as though they were scored in the correct basket. IOW, what I did. My partner and I were the only one's in the gym who knew that they had just scored at the wrong basket. Team B was playing defense and Team A made 2-3 passes prior to shooting. Although I was counting 10 seconds, I believe we permitted both teams to go the wrong direction.

Again, just wanted some other input on this. Still not 100% convinced I was wrong, but I am 97% convinced. I guess it all depends on what your definition of permit is? Oh well.

edited to add: My partner on the game also posts on this forum. I have alerted him to this and I'm sure that he will be along shortly to give his viewpoint of the play in question.

Last edited by Texref; Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 05:46pm.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:08pm
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As soon as it was apparent both teams were playing the wrong way (not just lining up for a trick play), you should have blown the ball dead.

What you did by allowing them to play the wrong way was outside the rules, therefore I think you did the right thing by following the case play in which everyone believes they are going the right way.
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 View Post
What you did by allowing them to play the wrong way was outside the rules, therefore I think you did the right thing by following the case play in which everyone believes they are going the right way.
First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".

If you lined up correctly and they go the wrong way, it isn't your job to stop them, what if it was a two point game and that mistake would tie the score, a tie game with seconds to play for the title of the world, for what reason by rule are you stoping the game?

If you point the correct direction and are lined up properly and the players go the wrong way - you do not have the authority by rule to stop them.

Permitting them to go the wrong way IMHO means you the official are responsible for the incorrect directions they are going.
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:27pm
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[QUOTE=OHBBREF;554433]First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".

[QUOTE]

I was the R and was to the Team A backcourt side of the thrower. My partner did not go to the Team A's baseline, rather he stayed at about mid court. Not where I go, but I also don't think his position was incorrect either.

I thought about (in the future if this happens again) blowing it dead as soon as it is apparent that they believe they are going that way.
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:31pm
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[QUOTE=Texref;554434][QUOTE=OHBBREF;554433]First off how did you and your partner line up to start the quarter, I will assume correctly, since you were looking for the "trick play".

Quote:

I was the R and was to the Team A backcourt side of the thrower. My partner did not go to the Team A's baseline, rather he stayed at about mid court. Not where I go, but I also don't think his position was incorrect either.

I thought about (in the future if this happens again) blowing it dead as soon as it is apparent that they believe they are going that way.
If it's apparent everyone is playing backwards, blow it dead and set them straight.
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
If it's apparent everyone is playing backwards, blow it dead and set them straight.
Ok, so in the future I'll do that, but what would you have done in the situation presented?
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:33pm
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[QUOTE=Texref;554434]
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
I thought about (in the future if this happens again) blowing it dead as soon as it is apparent that they believe they are going that way.
Again, please -site a rule, a case play or something that says after you told them the correct direction to go, that authorizes you to stop the action and prevent a team from going the wrong way?
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texref View Post
Ok, so in the future I'll do that, but what would you have done in the situation presented?
Exactly as you did, based on the same case play you mentioned. I disagree that you did it wrong (other than letting play continue).
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:37pm
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Before I hand the ball off to the thrower starting a period, I ALWAYS point the direction ("White ball going this direction" *insert pointing finger that way*). I do it just before I hand the ball off.

However if the thrower put the ball in play into the team's BC, there is nothing to be done. I don't believe there is anything the official can do until there is a dead ball (ie made basket, violation, etc). If they inbound the ball into their FC and they run to their BC, we have a BC violation.

Just my two cents...

-Josh
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Exactly as you did, based on the same case play you mentioned. I disagree that you did it wrong (other than letting play continue).
So what you are saying is thatif team A inbounds on the base line in their backcourt after a timeout, and Team B is pressing - A1 inbounds to A3 who is cutting toward the baseline and then just drives to hoop and throws toward the basket you realize that they are going the wrong way so are you going to stop it?

if you line them up right you are not responsible for what they do after that point.
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Last edited by OHBBREF; Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 05:47pm.
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 05:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
Before I hand the ball off to the thrower starting a period, I ALWAYS point the direction ("White ball going this direction" *insert pointing finger that way*). I do it just before I hand the ball off.

However if the thrower put the ball in play into the team's BC, there is nothing to be done. I don't believe there is anything the official can do until there is a dead ball (ie made basket, violation, etc). If they inbound the ball into their FC and they run to their BC, we have a BC violation.

Just my two cents...

-Josh

I do the same thing. Unfortunately they did not throw the ball into their front court, which is what usually happens when lined up for the trick play, they threw it in their backcourt and proceeded to play there. They got the shot off prior to a 10 second backcourt count.

I believe that what we can stop play and not permit them to continue the wrong direction(s) if it is obvious, as it was in this case, that everybody is going the wrong direction. If we don't stop it and know it, then I believe, 3% worth anyways , that we have permitted both teams to play in the wrong direction and therefore my ruling on the floor was correct.
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 06:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
So what you are saying is thatif team A inbounds on the base line in their backcourt after a timeout, and Team B is pressing - A1 inbounds to A3 who is cutting toward the baseline and then just drives to hoop and throws toward the basket you realize that they are going the wrong way so are you going to stop it?

if you line them up right you are not responsible for what they do after that point.
Completely different play -- there's a difference between one team being confused and both teams being confused.
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 06:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
Before I hand the ball off to the thrower starting a period, I ALWAYS point the direction ("White ball going this direction" *insert pointing finger that way*). I do it just before I hand the ball off.

However if the thrower put the ball in play into the team's BC, there is nothing to be done. I don't believe there is anything the official can do until there is a dead ball (ie made basket, violation, etc). If they inbound the ball into their FC and they run to their BC, we have a BC violation.

Just my two cents...

-Josh
What's more, if I'm getting the defending team out of the huddle, I'll tell them which way we're going, too (white ball coming this way, for example). If I'm the R, I'm pointing before the teams are set and pointing again before putting it in play and being quite vocal about it.

After we tell the teams a few times which way we're going I'm also going to be the lead in the proper frontcourt -- I'm not part of any kind of trickery like this.
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 07:14pm
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This happened at the beginning of the 4th quarter? I'm having a hard time seeing how they could end up going the wrong way by accident. What level is it? I see them roaming around in the BC (and they're ahead by 50!?!) , I'm counting. They shoot, team B gets the points, and A gets the ball and another 10 seconds to get the ball into the FC. If they do it again, I'm calling it unsportsmanlike and assessing a T.
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Old Mon Dec 01, 2008, 08:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
This happened at the beginning of the 4th quarter? I'm having a hard time seeing how they could end up going the wrong way by accident. What level is it? I see them roaming around in the BC (and they're ahead by 50!?!) , I'm counting. They shoot, team B gets the points, and A gets the ball and another 10 seconds to get the ball into the FC. If they do it again, I'm calling it unsportsmanlike and assessing a T.
This was a varsity boys game! Team A (team ahead by about 50) put their third stringers in the game (they had 15 in the book!). They weren't roaming, they were running a play and Team B was playing defense. I don't disagree with you by giving Team B the points and Team A the ball. That is what my partner said on the floor. After the game we ran it by the other officials replacing us and the other two crews (tournament setting) that were there. They all said they would have given Team B the points and Team A the ball.
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