Blarge alert!!!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I honestly think it is assumed that if you made a call, you signaled the type of foul.

Peace

This is true, but this is not the point. The point is, does a preliminary signal absolutely obligate one to make a certain call. I see nothing which indicates this. Others here seem to indicate that the two officials making opposite preliminary signals necessitates the double foul call.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Prelim signals are to be handled with a double foul

Originally Posted by walter

If you have prelims, in NFHS, you have to penalize both.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Of course, the best way to avoid that situation is for the primary official to make the call, or for the two officials to not give a preliminary signal before making eye contact to determine who will sell the call.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If two officials signal conflicting fouls on a play, then the resolution is a double foul.

So, you guys correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying that if you are positive it is a blocking foul, but have not made the block signal, but you do have a fist up, and the other guy signals PC, it is ok to walk away from the call, but if you have made the block signal, you will report a double foul?
Also, if the other guy sees your signal, says "My bad," and walks away, what would you do then?

[Raymond]

It was definitely a block but it was clearly in the C's primary.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So, you guys correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying that if you are positive it is a blocking foul, but have not made the block signal, but you do have a fist up, and the other guy signals PC, it is ok to walk away from the call, but if you have made the block signal, you will report a double foul?
Also, if the other guy sees your signal, says "My bad," and walks away, what would you do then?

Yep, that is exactly how it works.
Only one signal is given, then it is okay for only one type of foul to be reported. If two signals are given, then two fouls must be reported and the result is a double foul.
Neither official is permitted to simply drop his signal and walk away. If an official did that, then a coach would definitely have a right to get upset.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, that is exactly how it works.
Only one signal is given, then it is okay for only one type of foul to be reported. If two signals are given, then two fouls must be reported and the result is a double foul.

If the second official has his fist up, this is not a signal?

[btaylor64]

First of all it is a block. Player doesn't beat the alighted offensive player to the spot. This is where i don't like "takes it in the torso" philosophy. It is a decent, middle of the road philosophy if you ask me. There are way too many instances where a guy takes it in the torso and it should NOT be a charge.

Secondly, is most everybody saying that it would be a charge had he just tried to dribble past the defender instead of jump stop past him?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

First of all it is a block. Player doesn't beat the alighted offensive player to the spot. This is where i don't like "takes it in the torso" philosophy. It is a decent, middle of the road philosophy if you ask me. There are way too many instances where a guy takes it in the torso and it should NOT be a charge.

Great, time for our dose of pro philosophy.

Let me make it short and quick for everyone: FAVOR THE OFFENSE.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Secondly, is most everybody saying that it would be a charge had he just tried to dribble past the defender instead of jump stop past him?

Not only are people here saying that, but that's what the NFHS and NCAA rules books both say.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Great, time for our dose of pro philosophy.

Let me make it short and quick for everyone: FAVOR THE OFFENSE.



Not only are people here saying that, but that's what the NFHS and NCAA rules books both say.

So a defender can just slide underneath a moving and/or dribbling opponent and as long as he is somewhat in front of him its an offensive foul? That just doesn't make good sense to me. Sorry.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So a defender can just slide underneath a moving and/or dribbling opponent and as long as he is somewhat in front of him its an offensive foul? That just doesn't make good sense to me. Sorry.

If the defender has LGP, then yes. It's a basic of officiating basketball.

Edited to clarify - you're "slide underneath" comment is not a quality one. If the defender can get to a position where the contact is in the torso, then obviously he "slid" there before the offensive player got there. And if that happens, it's a PC foul if the defender had established LGP.

[Scrapper1]

Not coincidentally, I'm sure, this was forwarded to me by my D3 association:

I attended 2 games in person and watched numerous games on TV from Thursday through Sunday evening. Please pass along the following observations to officials who work in your leagues.

1. On a BLARGE, where one official signals a block and the other official clearly signals a player control foul, the ball is awarded to the team in control, and there is NO RESET of the shot clock.
This play is covered in the 2009 case book on page 69, A.R. 172. Please note, that this play differs from a BLARGE involving a block and a charge (player A has released the ball for a try and runs over a defender).
My last thought on this play is that the mechanics book clearly states that the Lead has primary coverage for this play (p. 42) BUT, it would be a benefit to the C if the Lead would raise a fist in the air as he signals the foul so that the C can see that the Lead has a call on the play.

2. I see too many instances where we are not allowing the shooter to finish a try he started, and instead, we are ruling "no try", that the foul occurred before the try started. See Rule book p. 84, Section 69, Art. 3, for a review of when a try starts.

3. Much better job of managing time outs.

4. I am working on posting additional plays on eofficials.com . They ought to be "up" by Wednesday or Thursday.


John W. Adams

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is true, but this is not the point. The point is, does a preliminary signal absolutely obligate one to make a certain call. I see nothing which indicates this. Others here seem to indicate that the two officials making opposite preliminary signals necessitates the double foul call.

You may not, but I think that is trying to pick nits.

Originally Posted by just another ref

So, you guys correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying that if you are positive it is a blocking foul, but have not made the block signal, but you do have a fist up, and the other guy signals PC, it is ok to walk away from the call, but if you have made the block signal, you will report a double foul?
Also, if the other guy sees your signal, says "My bad," and walks away, what would you do then?

If an official has not signaled anything, than it means little or nothing unless the calling official wants to consider the information. If we use that logic, what if we both have a foul and one thinks it is flagrant and the other thinks it is just intentional? We cannot call both just because. We have to pick one. In this case the rules state if both have signaled/called, then you cannot take either of them back. I do not see anyone interpreting the rules that way other than what you have stated. If it means that much to you I guess you could get into a debate with someone on the floor. I would suggest that you do not do that at that level. You might be the only one feeling that way, because the rules are meant to be the same as the NF interpretation.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We have to pick one. In this case the rules state if both have signaled/called, then you cannot take either of them back.

These two words are not synonyms. Nevada said that the two terms are used interchangeably in the NCAA books. I'd like to see an example of this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

These two words are not synonyms. Nevada said that the two terms are used interchangeably in the NCAA books. I'd like to see an example of this.

And if the wording is not to you liking, then what are you going to do? It is not going to change the interpretation of the rule.

Peace