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Old Mon Nov 24, 2008, 11:20pm
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backcourt violation

you know how in football, to be called for passing beyond the line of scrimmage (IFP), you have to have every single part of your body over the line? if your heel is still on the line of scrimmage, but everything else is in front of it, it still counts as a legal pass.

well, i was wondering how backcourt violation works in the nba. more so, when are you considered to be in the front court? i'm pretty sure it doesn't work like the nfl. i heard one of the bulls announcers say it's where the ball is, but how can that be, because that would mean you could be standing in the backcourt, then reach the ball over the line and pull it back and that would be a backcourt violation. it would also mean that you could be 100% in the frontcourt, and as long as the ball is in the frontcourt, you could touch your foot behind the halfcourt line, which i know you cannot do.

Last edited by PackersFTW; Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 11:25pm.
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Old Mon Nov 24, 2008, 11:25pm
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To be in frontcourt, a player holding the ball must have something touching the frontcourt and nothing touching the backcourt. A dribbler must have both feet and the ball touch the frontcourt.
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Old Mon Nov 24, 2008, 11:52pm
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From the NBA Rule Book:


Section VI—Frontcourt/Backcourt
a. A team’s frontcourt consists of that part of the court between its endline and the nearer edge of the midcourt line, including the basket and inbounds part of the backboard.

b. A team’s backcourt consists of the entire midcourt line and the rest of the court to include the opponent’s basket and inbounds part of the backboard.

c. A ball being held by a player: (1) is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt, (2) is in the backcourt if either the ball or player is touching the backcourt.

d. A ball being dribbled is (1) in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the player are in the frontcourt, (2) in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player is in the backcourt.

e. The ball is considered in the frontcourt once it has broken the plane of the midcourt line and is not in player control.
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Old Tue Nov 25, 2008, 03:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackersFTW View Post
you know how in football, to be called for passing beyond the line of scrimmage (IFP), you have to have every single part of your body over the line? if your heel is still on the line of scrimmage, but everything else is in front of it, it still counts as a legal pass.
That changes depending on the rule set being used. NFHS the pass is not legal if either of the passer's feet are beyond the neutral zone.
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Old Tue Nov 25, 2008, 07:56am
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A More Tolerant Forum ???

I have never seen so many NBA rule posts on the Forum without some type of harassment from Forum members, until recently. Are we becoming more tolerant?
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Old Tue Nov 25, 2008, 07:58am
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I have never seen so many NBA rule posts on the Forum without some type of harassment from Forum members, until recently. Are we becoming more tolerant?
Shut up.

better?
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Old Tue Nov 25, 2008, 08:53am
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Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
c. A ball being held by a player: (1) is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt, (2) is in the backcourt if either the ball or player is touching the backcourt.
I love this definition. The NFHS definition is worded differently, but the result is the same. If the ball is being held, then it is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt. That means that if I hold the ball in the backcourt and jump straight up, the ball is now in the frontcourt. If I then pass the ball to a teammate in the backcourt. . . violation!!
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Old Tue Nov 25, 2008, 09:37am
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Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I love this definition. The NFHS definition is worded differently, but the result is the same. If the ball is being held, then it is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt. That means that if I hold the ball in the backcourt and jump straight up, the ball is now in the frontcourt. If I then pass the ball to a teammate in the backcourt. . . violation!!
That's what I was thinking about that definition

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Old Tue Nov 25, 2008, 10:14pm
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Originally Posted by LDUB View Post
That changes depending on the rule set being used. NFHS the pass is not legal if either of the passer's feet are beyond the neutral zone.
most people are talking about the nfl when they say football, and the same with basketball and the nba. at least i would assume, i mean why wouldn't pro sports be the default?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
From the NBA Rule Book:


Section VI—Frontcourt/Backcourt
a. A team’s frontcourt consists of that part of the court between its endline and the nearer edge of the midcourt line, including the basket and inbounds part of the backboard.

b. A team’s backcourt consists of the entire midcourt line (meaning more than 50% of the court is in the backcourt) and the rest of the court to include the opponent’s basket and inbounds part of the backboard.

c. A ball being held by a player: (1) is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt, (2) is in the backcourt if either the ball or player is touching the backcourt.

d. A ball being dribbled is (1) in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the player are in the frontcourt, (2) in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player is in the backcourt.

e. The ball is considered in the frontcourt once it has broken the plane of the midcourt line and is not in player control.
so if you were bringing the ball up, and you were to randomly start dribbling along the halfcourt line with one foot in the backcourt, and the ball and the other foot in the front court, you would be considered still in the backcourt? but as soon as you pick up your backcourt foot while also having your frontcourt foot planted, now you would be in the frontcourt, and as soon as you reverse those feet (backcourt foot goes down, frontcourt foot goes up, while still dribbling the ball on the frontcourt side), it's a backcourt violation? that's not right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I love this definition. The NFHS definition is worded differently, but the result is the same. If the ball is being held, then it is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt. That means that if I hold the ball in the backcourt and jump straight up, the ball is now in the frontcourt. If I then pass the ball to a teammate in the backcourt. . . violation!!
exactly. you say it as a joke, but read what i said above. it's the same thing pretty much, except you are just walking or jogging. i have a feeling this rule will never be fully understood. obviously it won't matter very much, but a player could turn a ball over by 1. getting nervous about running along the halfcourt line after he is trapped right on the line 2. run along the line and get called because he don't know the rules (i say if you are running along the line, that shouldn't be a backcourt. you should have to touch both feet and the ball in the frontcourt, meaning you can touch your right foot to the frontcourt while picking up your backcourt foot and you would still be considered in the frontcourt)

the rules talk about "touching" but what about jumping, which would involve "touched".

both feet and the ball should need to touch the frontcourt before you are considered in the frontcourt, but with the way the rules are worded, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Last edited by PackersFTW; Tue Nov 25, 2008 at 10:19pm.
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Old Tue Nov 25, 2008, 10:41pm
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Originally Posted by PackersFTW View Post
most people are talking about the nfl when they say football, and the same with basketball and the nba. at least i would assume, i mean why wouldn't pro sports be the default?
Well, these forums are for officials who work amateur sports, mostly HS and college. Pro sports are not the default here because (1) the pro rules and mechanics are usually different, and (2) MLB/MiLB/NBA/NFL officials tend not to post here. (Personally, I spend more time watching college basketball and football than the NBA or NFL).

Some advice: If you identify the level of play (NFHS/NCAA/NBA) the posters here can give you a better answer. And never, ever, listen to what the announcers say about rules!
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Old Tue Nov 25, 2008, 11:12pm
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Originally Posted by PackersFTW View Post
most people are talking about the nfl when they say football, and the same with basketball and the nba. at least i would assume, i mean why wouldn't pro sports be the default?
Apples and tomatoes. First of all, go to states like Alabama, Nebraska, Iowa, Utah, even Florida and Georgia, and talk football; the default will be college.

Second of all, the NBA doesn't have nearly the following the NFL does. Most basketball fans I know of (not all, most) have long ago given up watching the NBA and prefer college ball.

Aside from that, SethPDX says it well here.
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Old Wed Nov 26, 2008, 08:07am
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Originally Posted by PackersFTW View Post
it's the same thing pretty much, except you are just walking or jogging.
And the part in red is what makes it not at all the same thing. When holding the ball, if any part of you or the ball is touching the backcourt, then you are in the backcourt. However, when dribbling from backcourt to froncourt, both feet and the ball must touch in the frontcourt in order for the ball to have frontcourt status. This distinction holds true in both NFHS and NCAA, and I would bet -- although I don't know for sure -- for the NBA, as well.

So, if you are holding the ball with your right foot in the frontcourt and your left foot in the backcourt, you are in the backcourt. You may pick up your right foot (you're still in the backcourt) and place it back down in the backcourt or the frontcourt with no penalty. Either way, you're still in the backcourt. The ball never achieved frontcourt status, so there can't be a backcourt violation. Now, if you're straddling the line again and you pick up your LEFT foot, you now have nothing touching in the backcourt so the ball now has frontcourt status. If you then put that foot back down in the backcourt, you have committed a violation.

By contrast, if you are dribbling the ball near midcourt and are straddling the division line with your right foot in the frontcourt and your left foot in the backcourt, you have a lot more flexibility. You can continue to dribble the ball in the backcourt and move your left foot into the frontcourt and back to the backcourt again with no violation. You can dribble the ball in the frontcourt (keeping your left foot in the backcourt) and then bring it back to the backcourt, with no violation. You can bring your right foot into the backcourt without a violation. All of these things are legal, WHILE DRIBBLING, because both feet and the ball must touch in the frontcourt in order for the ball to have frontcourt status.

Hope that's not overkill to make my point.
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Old Fri Nov 28, 2008, 06:39am
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Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
And the part in red is what makes it not at all the same thing. When holding the ball, if any part of you or the ball is touching the backcourt, then you are in the backcourt. However, when dribbling from backcourt to froncourt, both feet and the ball must touch in the frontcourt in order for the ball to have frontcourt status. This distinction holds true in both NFHS and NCAA, and I would bet -- although I don't know for sure -- for the NBA, as well.

So, if you are holding the ball with your right foot in the frontcourt and your left foot in the backcourt, you are in the backcourt. You may pick up your right foot (you're still in the backcourt) and place it back down in the backcourt or the frontcourt with no penalty. Either way, you're still in the backcourt. The ball never achieved frontcourt status, so there can't be a backcourt violation. Now, if you're straddling the line again and you pick up your LEFT foot, you now have nothing touching in the backcourt so the ball now has frontcourt status. If you then put that foot back down in the backcourt, you have committed a violation.

By contrast, if you are dribbling the ball near midcourt and are straddling the division line with your right foot in the frontcourt and your left foot in the backcourt, you have a lot more flexibility. You can continue to dribble the ball in the backcourt and move your left foot into the frontcourt and back to the backcourt again with no violation. You can dribble the ball in the frontcourt (keeping your left foot in the backcourt) and then bring it back to the backcourt, with no violation. You can bring your right foot into the backcourt without a violation. All of these things are legal, WHILE DRIBBLING, because both feet and the ball must touch in the frontcourt in order for the ball to have frontcourt status.

Hope that's not overkill to make my point.
wow, that's my kind of explanation. ok, so it does work how i thought it should work. good. i knew neil funk was wrong when he said "it's where the ball is, not where you are" as that makes no sense, because according to that logic, you could just reach the ball over the line and it's a backcourt violation.
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