Double Whistle Situation

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

M&M is right, this is about when both partners come out strong with opposing preliminaries.

I'm sure this is true, but the preliminary signal alone means nothing. This is especially true when your partner has the opposite preliminary signal. If you report a double foul in this case you know one is wrong. So get together and take your best shot.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm sure this is true, but the preliminary signal alone means nothing. This is especially true when your partner has the opposite preliminary signal. If you report a double foul in this case you know one is wrong. So get together and take your best shot.

For those that are new and/or working NFHS or NCAA-M, and unless you are working NCAA-W (can't speak for NBA or FIBA) this is such bad advice I don't know where to begin. First of all you've taken a bad situation, because the crew didn't "blow and hold", and now have turned it into a CF because you're deciding to do whatever you want to do. You'd be laughed right off the staff for that. Blarges happen, try not to let them, but if it does please don't complicate it and get it resolved how its supposed to be by the code of the game in question. I can explain a blarge to my assignor, I can't explain doing whatever I want to do.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm sure this is true, but the preliminary signal alone means nothing. This is especially true when your partner has the opposite preliminary signal. If you report a double foul in this case you know one is wrong. So get together and take your best shot ignore the explicit direction of the NFHS rules committee.

Fixed it for you.

[just another ref]

Question: Why do we form an angry mob about a backcourt interpretation but defend this issue with its direct contradiction?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Question: Why do we form an angry mob about a backcourt interpretation but defend this issue with its direct contradiction?

Let me put my pitchfork and torch down for minute and try to explain it.

The backcourt interp we yell and scream about is just wrong from a rules standpoint. It is an (apparent) mistake by the NFHS. We'll jump up and down about it all day long, then actually go out and make that call at night, because that's what we're supposed to do. (And, of course, grumble while giving the signal...)

The blarge call is essentially a mistake by the officials. If the officials are doing their job properly, the primary official will be making the call. But what happens when two officials make conflicting calls about the same play? The case play tells us what to do - we have to report both fouls. It's not that the NFHS is telling us that both a charge and a block can actually happen at the same time, they're just telling us how to handle the situation where two officials have disagreed (for however short a time) on a call. I believe I read at one point the reason behind this is the theory that no official has the right to over-rule another's call. If everyone sees an official call a charge, then another official comes in and says, "It's in my primary - it's a block!", then that second official has seemingly over-ruled the first.

To me, it's no different than what happens when an official blows the whistle on a TO request when that team isn't entitled to a TO - you still grant the TO anyway.

In both cases, it's an official's mistake in some way, and the rules tell us what to do in those cases. I don't happen to agree - I would rather do it the way the NCAA-W handle it by the two officials coming together and coming out with one call. But, we don't get that option in NFHS rules. We can grumble about it all day long, then go out and make sure we get the call right in the first place so this never comes into play.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I believe I read at one point the reason behind this is the theory that no official has the right to over-rule another's call.

I heartily agree with this. But the deal here is that while I may not overrule your call, and would not try to do so, if I have information which might lead you to change your call, I may, depending on the circumstances, choose to share this information with you. This is the case even when one official has made a signal and the other has not. If both officials have made a signal, and the two contradict each other, hopefully one will immediately yield to the other, or, if this is not possible, they can quickly confer.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But the deal here is that while I may not overrule your call, and would not try to do so, if I have information which might lead you to change your call, I may, depending on the circumstances, choose to share this information with you. This is the case even when one official has made a signal and the other has not.

We agree.

Originally Posted by just another ref

If both officials have made a signal, and the two contradict each other, hopefully one will immediately yield to the other, or, if this is not possible, they can quickly confer.

While I agree in principle, I disagree from a rules standpoint, according the NFHS. If I'm a coach and happen to know the rules (there really are a few of those out there), I would have a vaild complaint that only one foul was reported against my team, even though there were two fouls called.

Again, I agree with your principle, but I disagree with going against the rules because I (or you, or whoever) disagree with the rule.

[just another ref]

I have one more question. This relates to the current Blarge-questions from coach thread. It is established that the case play in question does not specifically mention preliminary signals, but that seems to be the key to this case for those of you on the other side. In the OP of the other thread one official emphatically signals the PC, and the other simply has a fist up and makes no further signal. The second official saw the play as a block, was positive it was a block, but for whatever reason did not make the block signal. Why is he not obligated to report his foul?