End of game sitch

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I've just been sitting back here, reading others' posts, not wanting to take a stand on this obviously controversial, yet with little specific rule, or case situation, backing, issue, but I've decided to give it a shot.

I've had many, many, youth level games, where, especially at the beginning of the season, a confused player, after a made basket, will toss it to the official. I've just tossed it back. So, instinctively, I would probably do the same here.

That's my story, short and simple, and I'm sticking to it until the NFHS comes up with a rule, or case play, specific to this situation.

i've sat back on this issue just to see what more people would say and its good to see that common sense officiating is coming through in the end. I just try and picture an official moving out of the way of a dead ball that is clearly being tossed to him and it makes no practical sense to me...

I understand the value of time... trust me i do but i believe the fault for this time problem is placed on the NFHS. They should allow for the clock to stop under 1 min. in the last period so that this sitch under debate is not even a problem because now players, when taking the ball out with 6 or 7 seconds will toss the ball to the official and then doesn't have to throw the ball in. That cannot be put on us or the players. We are doing the right thing and the player is doing the smart thing in taking advantage of a hole in the rules.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Team A is down 4 points with less than 15 seconds on the game clock. A2 scores on a 3 point try... Team A is now down by 1. Team B delays in picking up the ball, the official begins his 5 second count. B1 sees the count, picks up the ball & tosses it to the official.
What would you do?

Any casebook play provided would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Originally Posted by btaylor64

i've sat back on this issue just to see what more people would say and its good to see that common sense officiating is coming through in the end. I just try and picture an official moving out of the way of a dead ball that is clearly being tossed to him and it makes no practical sense to me...

Wrong again, Mr. Rules Guru.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Wrong again, Mr. Rules Guru.

I understand he's not up to speed on all NFHS rules, but to miss a basic like this?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Wrong again, Mr. Rules Guru.

To be fair, the ball might be dead....if the player grabbed the ball as it fell through the net and tossed it to the official before stepping OOB for the throwin and in such a way (quickly) such that the official didn't yet consider it to be at the thrower's disposal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

To be fair, the ball might be dead....if the player grabbed the ball as it fell through the net and tossed it to the official before stepping OOB for the throwin and in such a way (quickly) such that the official didn't yet consider it to be at the thrower's disposal.

I believe that if the player has it in his hands, and has the ball under his control, it's a live ball, even if the player is still inbounds, before going out of bounds, but I can be easily convinced otherwise, in other words, I wouldn't bet my house on it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I believe that if the player has it in his hands, and has the ball under his control, it's a live ball, even if the player is still inbounds, before going out of bounds, but I can be easily convinced otherwise, in other words, I wouldn't bet my house on it.

Consider yourself convinced otherwise.

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 9: With less than one minute to play in the fourth quarter, Team A scores a field goal to tie the game. B1, standing under the basket after the score, secures the ball and begins heading to the end line for the ensuing throw-in. A1 requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Legal procedure. Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins. The throw-in does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 9: With less than one minute to play in the fourth quarter, Team A scores a field goal to tie the game. B1, standing under the basket after the score, secures the ball and begins heading to the end line for the ensuing throw-in. A1 requests and is granted a time-out. RULING:Legal procedure. Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins. The throw-in does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count.

Good citation. Thank God I didn't bet my house on this.

But I still have some questions about this. Isn't it true that either team can call a time out when the ball is dead? And, doesn't the ball become live when it is at the disposal of B1? And, further, don't we start our five second count, by rule, when the ball is at the disposal of A1? In an extreme example, let's say that B1 doesn't pick up the ball that just went through the basket, possibly delaying to set up a press break, and he's waiting for his guards to get into position. Can't we say that the ball is at B1's disposal at that time, and start the count as he stands there looking at the ball that's on the floor?

In other words, does the actual rule state that Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins, or, as I believe, that Team A may request and be granted a time-out during the dead ball period immediately after a goal?

And another question that this brings to mind: By rule, do we start our count when the ball is at the disposal of A1, as I believe, or do we start our count when A1 steps out of bounds?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In other words, does the actual rule state that Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins, or, as I believe, that Team A may request and be granted a time-out during the dead ball period immediately after a goal?

Either team may be granted a timeout during a deadball situation. Once the ball goes through the hoop, the ball is immediately dead until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And another question that this brings to mind: By rule, do we start our count when the ball is at the disposal of A1, as I believe, or do we start our count when A1 steps out of bounds?

The count should start once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. If they are horsing around (ie stalling), the count can definitely be started before the thrower has the ball out of bounds. The only restriction is that it must be at the disposal of the thrower to start. This concept is absolutely at the mercy of the official's judgment.

-Josh

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In other words, does the actual rule state that Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins, or, as I believe, that Team A may request and be granted a time-out during the dead ball period immediately after a goal?

You can look up the rule wording yourself, but both of your options above mean the same thing.

And another question that this brings to mind: By rule, do we start our count when the ball is at the disposal of A1, as I believe, or do we start our count when A1 steps out of bounds?

We start our count when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounding team -- in a practiacl sense it's when they have the ball OOB facing the court or could reasonably be expected to do so.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

To be fair, the ball might be dead....if the player grabbed the ball as it fell through the net and tossed it to the official before stepping OOB for the throwin and in such a way (quickly) such that the official didn't yet consider it to be at the thrower's disposal.

Camron,
The OP was very clear and specific.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Team A is down 4 points with less than 15 seconds on the game clock. A2 scores on a 3 point try... Team A is now down by 1. Team B delays in picking up the ball, the official begins his 5 second count. B1 sees the count, picks up the ball & tosses it to the official.
What would you do?

Any casebook play provided would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Do you think that the official didn't consider it to be at the disposal?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Camron,
The OP was very clear and specific.



Do you think that the official didn't consider it to be at the disposal?

Was not commenting specifically on the OP...just on the possible inference that the ball couldn't, in general, be dead.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

To be fair, the ball might be dead....if the player grabbed the ball as it fell through the net and tossed it to the official before stepping OOB for the throwin and in such a way (quickly) such that the official didn't yet consider it to be at the thrower's disposal.

No, as Nevada points out, in the OP, the ball was clearly live. B1 clearly looked at the official and saw the count, then tossed it to the official.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Wrong again, Mr. Rules Guru.

I apologize for mispeaking, but it doesn't escape the point in what you are doing.


Someone said something about not going to catch the ball and start the count OVER. I never said start the count over i just said catch it and/or quickly bat it back to the player and CONTINUE the count from where you were. That, to me, is the best possible scenario. To do this shouldn't take any more than 1 sec.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I apologize for mispeaking, but it doesn't escape the point in what you are doing.


Someone said something about not going to catch the ball and start the count OVER. I never said start the count over i just said catch it and/or quickly bat it back to the player and CONTINUE the count from where you were. That, to me, is the best possible scenario. To do this shouldn't take any more than 1 sec.

You're right, you didn't say start the count over. I misspoke. You said to suspend it. Again, there's no "hole" in the rules here, but by your admission you would create one.

I have no problem with flipping it back to him; but I personally wouldn't hurry, nor would I suspend the count. Even suspending the count gives the new offense some of the illegal advantage they are seeking.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I would treat this like a player in the lane for 2 1/2 seconds and is thrown the ball. You delay the count if he is making a move to the basket. if he passes off then you continue the count.

I would catch the ball throw it to the player and continue the count.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I understand the value of time... trust me i do but i believe the fault for this time problem is placed on the NFHS. They should allow for the clock to stop under 1 min. in the last period so that this sitch under debate is not even a problem because now players, when taking the ball out with 6 or 7 seconds will toss the ball to the official and then doesn't have to throw the ball in. That cannot be put on us or the players. We are doing the right thing and the player is doing the smart thing in taking advantage of a hole in the rules.

There's no "hole" in the rules here, as there's no provision for a player tossing the ball to the official. At best, I'll bat it in their direction while continuing my count. If you catch it, start your count over, and keep the clock running, you've given them an advantage not intended by the rules.

If you give the D.O.G. warning, you've gone outside the rules, but at least you've addressed it and negated their advantage. There's no real "punishment," though.

Am I likely to get out of the way? Probably not. But I am more likely than not just to let it hit me and keep bouncing while my hand keeps swinging.