Scorer changes team member, player, number in scorebook ???

[BillyMac]

Penalized when they occur, after ten minute time limit; A maximum of one technical foul per team regardless of the number of infractions, 3a, 3b, 3c; The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook; The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live; Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize: A team shall not require the scorer to change a team member, or player, number in the scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit; Team technical foul; If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

What if said player participates, unbeknown to an official, and is then substituted for, and is sitting on the bench? It seems too late to penalize. Am I correct? Can it be penalized the next time the player enters the game, before the ball becomes live?

[OHBBREF]

once they are in the game and the ball is live they are legal and can not be penalized -

how could you now say that they are not legal after that?

[Adam]

If the scorer makes the change without telling you, it's too late once the ball becomes live; whether or not the player is still in the game.

If they change the book again (for a different player, for example), then you penalize. I'm adding this to my scorer pregame talk this year.

[Nevadaref]

I disagree with both responses so far.

OH is applying an inappropriate rule. The proper rule to apply is the one that deals with changing the scorebook. It has nothing to do with the legality of the player.

As for Snaq's response, I cannot permit a scorer to allow a team to get away with a clear infraction, if I have knowledge of the offense. I'm penalizing this one as soon as I learn about it.

[just another ref]

I'm with Nevada on this one. "Penalized when they occur" has no expiration time that I'm aware of. When the official becomes aware, that's when it occurred, as far as he is concerned.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm with Nevada on this one. "Penalized when they occur" has no expiration time that I'm aware of.

It doesn't? "The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live; Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize".

ref;550791: I'm not really disagreeing, or agreeing, with you. I just want these penalties to be less confusing for me, and would like to keep the debate going until I get some clarity. Thanks for the response.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live; Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize".

Billy,
It is clear to me that the above statement assumes that the officials are notified of the infraction at the proper time. When that aspect is removed, I'm not convinced that it is still binding. Turning to 2-3 seems appropriate in this case.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It is clear to me that the above statement assumes that the officials are notified of the infraction at the proper time. When that aspect is removed, I'm not convinced that it is still binding. Turning to 2-3 seems appropriate in this case.

Nevadaref: Thanks for your replies. As I said before, at this point, I'm not disagreeing, or agreeing, with anyone. I'm just trying to clarify these penalties in my mind.

In my original post, the officials were not notified at the proper time (What if said player participates, unbeknown to an official, and is then substituted for, and is sitting on the bench?). So what your saying is that 2-3, or intent and purpose, trump, "The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize".

I would like some more clarification.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It doesn't? "The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live; Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize".

Where does it say that with regard to this rule?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It doesn't? "The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live; Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize".

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Billy,
It is clear to me that the above statement assumes that the officials are notified of the infraction at the proper time. When that aspect is removed, I'm not convinced that it is still binding. Turning to 2-3 seems appropriate in this case.

I'm not convinced it's so clear. To me, "it is too late to penalize" states very clearly that if the officials aren't notified at the right time, it can't be penalized.

Unless you think that statement "clearly" refers to a situation when the officials are told but choose to ignore it only to want to penalize it later.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Where does it say that with regard to this rule?

I am new to this board, but not officiating. I agree with Nevadaref and Just Another Ref. Billy Mac is applying the "once the ball has become alive" penalty and time frame to sections 2b, c, d which apply to adding names or changing numbers in the score book. "Once the ball has become alive" penalty applies only to 2a which is changing a designated starter. You can't apply the ""once the ball has become alive" penalty to the other sections....they are penalized when they occur, and that might be minutes later when the officials become aware of the situation that the score keeper might have overlooked. No expiration of this penalty....IMHO....

Glad to be a part of this forum....you guys are really helping me with the game...thanks, Bishopcolle

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I am new to this board, but not officiating.

Even if you don't always agree with me in the future.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I am new to this board, but not officiating. I agree with Nevadaref and Just Another Ref. Billy Mac is applying the "once the ball has become alive" penalty and time frame to sections 2b, c, d which apply to adding names or changing numbers in the score book. "Once the ball has become alive" penalty applies only to 2a which is changing a designated starter. You can't apply the ""once the ball has become alive" penalty to the other sections....they are penalized when they occur, and that might be minutes later when the officials become aware of the situation that the score keeper might have overlooked. No expiration of this penalty....IMHO....

Glad to be a part of this forum....you guys are really helping me with the game...thanks, Bishopcolle

Disagree....

"when they occur" means just that, not when the officials become aware of it. You penalize the change in the book at the time the book is changed. You can't go back and penalize it if you discover it later. If so, the rule would have said "when discovered" like 2e.

Now, if I've got a scorer who's added a name without informing the ref and I feel it was done to expressly benefit his/her team, I just might call a team T for the unsportsmanlike behavior of the scorer....but not for the change itself.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Where does it say that with regard to this rule?

I took some of the language from casebook plays. I'll try to get the citations when I have more time. Thanks.

[kmw]

In the OP, I think it would be a "T" when discovered -

The situation I had last year, involved the home scorer (team A) forgetting to put a name of team b in the book. The scorer even went as far as to show me the card she was given prior to game that had the players name on it....