More garbage from the NFHS

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

...
BTW your 'lift the pivot foot and then start a dribble' situation does fall within the purview of "while holding the ball" and thus the guiding principle for traveling. The player lifted his pivot while holding the ball and certainly released the ball to begin a dribble while holding it. The violation takes place at that time. The official simply has to wait to confirm that the action of the player was indeed a dribble and not a pass.

It doesn't become a dribble until the player resecures the ball. It doesn't become a violation until that point.

If a player lifts his/her pivot and stands there for 5 seconds then dribbles you can't say the violation occurred 5 seconds ago when the pivot was lifted. It became a violation when he/she dribbled.

If a player tosses the ball in the air, runs, then catches it then they never relinquished player control; and they lifted and reset their pivot foot, so it's a travel to me. That's the spirit of the rule, at least IMO.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It doesn't become a dribble until the player resecures the ball. It doesn't become a violation until that point.

Sometimes can't tell if it is a dribble or a pass until we see what happens next. That doesn't change the fact that is a dribble when it is released from the hand.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sometimes can't tell if it is a dribble or a pass until we see what happens next. That doesn't change the fact that is a dribble when it is released from the hand.

Basically we are just arguing semantics. No big deal to me really as long as we call the violation when it occurs.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It doesn't become a dribble until the player resecures the ball. It doesn't become a violation until that point.

If a player lifts his/her pivot and stands there for 5 seconds then dribbles you can't say the violation occurred 5 seconds ago when the pivot was lifted. It became a violation when he/she dribbled.

If a player tosses the ball in the air, runs, then catches it then they never relinquished player control; and they lifted and reset their pivot foot, so it's a travel to me. That's the spirit of the rule, at least IMO.

Never relinquished player control? How sure are you about that one?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If a player tosses the ball in the air, runs, then catches it then they never relinquished player control; and they lifted and reset their pivot foot, so it's a travel to me. That's the spirit of the rule, at least IMO.

4-12-1 . . . A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Sorry, but if you don't consider the toss to be a dribble, then the action doesn't meet the definiton of player control.

If you do consider the toss to be a dribble, then there is player control, but a player cannot travel during a dribble!

Seems that your position is untenable.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4-12-1 . . . A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Sorry, but if you don't consider the toss to be a dribble, then the action doesn't meet the definiton of player control.

If you do consider the toss to be a dribble, then there is player control, but a player cannot travel during a dribble!

Seems that your position is untenable.

I don't consider the toss to be a dribble as it never hit the court, referee, or opposing team's backboard. Remember I'm the one disagreed with your definition earlier that this was an illegal dribble. It's a travel.

If a player tosses the ball in the air and catches it then it is not a shot, pass, nor dribble. If a player stands in one spot and tosses the ball up in the air a few times are you can saying he used up his dribble?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't consider the toss to be a dribble as it never hit the court, referee, or opposing team's backboard. Remember I'm the one disagreed with your definition earlier that this was an illegal dribble. It's a travel.

How much do you know about the history of the game? Do you know what an air dribble was?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How much do you know about the history of the game? Do you know what an air dribble was?

Don't remember that one. But I don't doubt there was such an animal. Was it legal or illegal?

[Nevadaref]

Made legal in 1892, but I don't know the exact year that it was taken out.

BTW dribbling on the floor wasn't legalized until 1898.

There is a good description of the air dribble on page 20 of the NFHS Basketball Handbook.

"But abuses became evident almost at once. Instead of bouncing the ball on the floor, clever players began to tap the ball upward and tapping it again as it came down in what later was called an "air dribble." Those adept at the trick would tap the ball only a few inches above their finger tips while advancing at full speed all the way into scoring position. There was usually no effective way of stopping this maneuver short of fouling. Soon there were rules limiting the dribble to one air dribble and preventing the resumption of any type of dribble once the player had ended his/her dribble by holding the ball in one or both hands."

The point is that this action has historically been considered a dribble. So that's why it is properly an illegal dribble violation. It pays to know your history.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Instead of bouncing the ball on the floor, clever players began to tap the ball upward and tapping it again as it came down in what later was called an "air dribble." Those adept at the trick would tap the ball only a few inches above their finger tips while advancing at full speed all the way into scoring position. Dribbling on the floor wasn't legalized until 1898.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. spearheaded the effort to get this rule changed.