What you got? (nfhs)

jritchie · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 08:51am

how many free throws? direct T's on who? Indirect T's on who?
Sit: A1 gets hit in nose starts bleeding. Goes to bench with towel play resumes. A1 gets bleeding stopped but coach notices blood on shirt, coach comes over and tells A15 to give up his jersey, so they both take off shirt and A1 now has A15's jersey number, A1 wanting to check in, official blows whistle as they see A1 putting on the other jersey as he is running to check in, A15 is sitting on the bench in his under armour

What do you got????

Nate1224hoops · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 09:01am

Wow, thats tuff. Nice hypothetical situation. I'm searching for the rulebook right now...lol

bob jenkins · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 09:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by jritchie
how many free throws? direct T's on who? Indirect T's on who?
Sit: A1 gets hit in nose starts bleeding. Goes to bench with towel play resumes. A1 gets bleeding stopped but coach notices blood on shirt, coach comes over and tells A15 to give up his jersey, so they both take off shirt and A1 now has A15's jersey number, A1 wanting to check in, official blows whistle as they see A1 putting on the other jersey as he is running to check in, A15 is sitting on the bench in his under armour What do you got????

There's no T for changing the jersey and the scorebook in this situation.

There are two direct T's to the A1 and A15 for removing the jersey (assming the official saw it). Since they were bench personnel at the time, it's also two indirects on the coach.

Ref-X · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 09:20am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by jritchie
how many free throws? direct T's on who? Indirect T's on
There's no T for changing the jersey and the scorebook in this situation.

There are two direct T's to the A1 and A15 for removing the jersey (assming the official saw it). Since they were bench personnel at the time, it's also two indirects on the coach.

this sounds like the correct call. 2 T's for the two players removing there jersey's on the bench. They must leave the gym to do that. And the indirects on the coach.

jritchie · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 09:27am

So 4 free throws by Team B and ball at division line,2 team fouls, coach sits, unless he already has been T'd up(directly or indirectly), then he is given his walking papers!!

FrankHtown · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 10:02am

I guess, by rule, 2 T's are called for, but wow...that seems severe.

FrankHtown · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 10:04am

And at that point, you might as well call the third T on the coach, cause he/she is going to go ballistic.

zebraman · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 10:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Quote:

Originally posted by jritchie
how many free throws? direct T's on who? Indirect T's on who?
Sit: A1 gets hit in nose starts bleeding. Goes to bench with towel play resumes. A1 gets bleeding stopped but coach notices blood on shirt, coach comes over and tells A15 to give up his jersey, so they both take off shirt and A1 now has A15's jersey number, A1 wanting to check in, official blows whistle as they see A1 putting on the other jersey as he is running to check in, A15 is sitting on the bench in his under armour What do you got????

There's no T for changing the jersey and the scorebook in this situation.

There are two direct T's to the A1 and A15 for removing the jersey (assming the official saw it). Since they were bench personnel at the time, it's also two indirects on the coach.

Why would this be technical fouls? Isn't the idea for the T for removing the jersey addressing "unsportsmanlike behavior" like a player pulling their jersey out to show up a ref? I don't think it was meant to penalize a player for giving up their jersey to a another who has blood on their jersey. The common sense thing to do here would be to just go over to the scorer's table and instruct the scorer to change the scorebook with no penalty. Then tell the coach to notify the officials beforehand next time. Then let A1 into the game. IMO, technical fouls here are overly officious.

Z

FrankHtown · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 10:10am

The new rule prohibits removing a jersey within the "visual confines of the court" for any reason. (3-4-15)

Kelvin green · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 10:12am

I might make a suggestion. Take a look at how NFHS wants the shirt rul called. The rule was meant to penalize this exact behavior and is spelled out clearly in all the books... This is not overly officious. The NFHS put into their interp something to the effect that it is not unreasonable for players to go to the locker room to change a bloody shirt.

Given the bench decorum emphasis that NFHS is placin, and if you look at the nCAA and the emphasis they are putting on bench decorum- we ought to call it.

Now some prevent officiating will go a long way because an onservant official will hear coach tell A1 and A15 to exchange jerseys and the official can suggest that players do it in locker room or hall.

The other point if this is A1 (start player) A is trying to get player back in game and gain an advantage not allowed by rule (getting th person in faster) They go change the shirt A1 goes in the next time after being ready.

zebraman · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 10:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by FrankHtown
The new rule prohibits removing a jersey within the "visual confines of the court" for any reason. (3-4-15)

You are correct. We don't have our books yet, but I see this case on the NFHS website:

SITUATION 5: A1 is directed to leave the game with a blood-saturated jersey. While at the team bench area, he/she removes the jersey and changes into a clean, spare jersey. RULING: A1 is assessed a technical foul. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. COMMENT: The uniform rule is intended to be applied in all situations. It is not unreasonable to expect team members to leave the playing area to change uniforms. (3-4-15; 10-4-1h)

I'm guessing that came into play due to girls games. Girls will often change jerseys and be in nothing but a sports bra and that probably offended someone and led to the change. Can't imagine anyone got offended by a boy in his under armour but we do need to treat both genders equally now don't we.

I'll be interested to hear what is said about this at our state's interpreter's meeting.

Like someone else said, if you give out T two's for this you might as well get ready to give at least one more because the head coach is going to get one shortly thereafter.

Z

walter · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 10:33am

Why would this be technical fouls? Isn't the idea for the T for removing the jersey addressing "unsportsmanlike behavior" like a player pulling their jersey out to show up a ref? I don't think it was meant to penalize a player for giving up their jersey to a another who has blood on their jersey. The common sense thing to do here would be to just go over to the scorer's table and instruct the scorer to change the scorebook with no penalty. Then tell the coach to notify the officials beforehand next time. Then let A1 into the game. IMO, technical fouls here are overly officious.

Z
[/B][/QUOTE]

While common sense says it may be overly officious, the NFHS wants removing of the jersey, pulling the jersey away from the chest, etc. assessed a technical foul no matter the reason. This is supposed to be stressed at every interpretation meeting and all of the coaches as well as the officials are to be made aware of the rule. According to the NFHS, there is no leeway supposed to be given here. A situation that came up for discussion at our meeting was an end of the game scenario. Team A wins a hotly contested rivalry game over Team B at Team B's gym. After the final horn with the score 62-58 in favor of Team A, and before the officials have left visual confines of the floor, several Team A players begin jumping around pulling their jerseys away from their chests to show off the name on the jersey in celebration. The officials as they are leaving the floor see this behavior. What do you do? Since our meeting involves coaches and officials you can imagine how lively the discussion became. I'm interested to see reaction here before I tell you what our State Interpreter, who is also on the NFHS rules committee, said we should do.

Smitty · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 10:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by walter
While common sense says it may be overly officious, the NFHS wants removing of the jersey, pulling the jersey away from the chest, etc. assessed a technical foul no matter the reason.

I see in the books where it mentions removing the jersey, but where does it reference pulling the jersey out? Is there a case book play?

walter · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 10:52am

It is in the points of emphasis (Section 1, A under examples)as well as in the handouts we received from the NFHS rep. The NFHS considers it unsporting and wants it penalized with a technical foul for each offense. According to our rep, this is not an example of properly wearing a jersey.

Smitty · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 28, 2005, 10:55am

Quote:

Originally posted by walter
It is in the points of emphasis (Section 1, A under examples)as well as in the handouts we received from the NFHS rep. The NFHS considers it unsporting and wants it penalized with a technical foul for each offense. According to our rep, this is not an example of properly wearing a jersey.

Ok, I see that. I just wish they worded it in such a way that would make it clearer that there should be a penalty for pulling the jersey out at the chest. It only specifically states that taking the jersey off is a T. It sort of implies in a roundabout way that pulling the jersey out could be a T as well. Why don't they just say it, for crying out loud?