More garbage from the NFHS

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I say the logic of this entire conversation is faulty because the 2007-08 Interp considered the play an illegal dribble despite the fact that the ball never touched the playing court. How come you and Nevada didn't have a problem with that interpretation? It violated the principle of a dribble being a pushed/tapped/batted ball that hits the playing court.

Because that is precisely what make this action an ILLEGAL dribble.
A LEGAL dribble is one that contacts the floor. That is part of the definiton of how to dribble. Since this ball didn't contact the floor, the player dribbled in an illegal manner. It's really that simple. Read rule 4-15-2 and you will see that this action violates one of the provisions of a DRIBBLE. On the contrary, there is no provision of the traveling rule which one can point to and correctly claim to have been violated by this action.

Also consult 4.15.4 Situation D part (a) and notice that the new Case Book ruling contradicts with this long standing Case Book play and is basically the same action.

BTW your 'lift the pivot foot and then start a dribble' situation does fall within the purview of "while holding the ball" and thus the guiding principle for traveling. The player lifted his pivot while holding the ball and certainly released the ball to begin a dribble while holding it. The violation takes place at that time. The official simply has to wait to confirm that the action of the player was indeed a dribble and not a pass. So the call by the official has to be delayed. That is very similar to an official waiting to see if contact put a player at a disadvantage before calling a foul. The foul still took place at the time of the contact, not when the official blew his whistle. In fact, if such a play happens late in an NCAA game with access to a courtside monitor the official will reset the clock to the time of the contact, not the time of the call.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

...
BTW your 'lift the pivot foot and then start a dribble' situation does fall within the purview of "while holding the ball" and thus the guiding principle for traveling. The player lifted his pivot while holding the ball and certainly released the ball to begin a dribble while holding it. The violation takes place at that time. The official simply has to wait to confirm that the action of the player was indeed a dribble and not a pass.

It doesn't become a dribble until the player resecures the ball. It doesn't become a violation until that point.

If a player lifts his/her pivot and stands there for 5 seconds then dribbles you can't say the violation occurred 5 seconds ago when the pivot was lifted. It became a violation when he/she dribbled.

If a player tosses the ball in the air, runs, then catches it then they never relinquished player control; and they lifted and reset their pivot foot, so it's a travel to me. That's the spirit of the rule, at least IMO.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It doesn't become a dribble until the player resecures the ball. It doesn't become a violation until that point.

Sometimes can't tell if it is a dribble or a pass until we see what happens next. That doesn't change the fact that is a dribble when it is released from the hand.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sometimes can't tell if it is a dribble or a pass until we see what happens next. That doesn't change the fact that is a dribble when it is released from the hand.

Basically we are just arguing semantics. No big deal to me really as long as we call the violation when it occurs.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It doesn't become a dribble until the player resecures the ball. It doesn't become a violation until that point.

If a player lifts his/her pivot and stands there for 5 seconds then dribbles you can't say the violation occurred 5 seconds ago when the pivot was lifted. It became a violation when he/she dribbled.

If a player tosses the ball in the air, runs, then catches it then they never relinquished player control; and they lifted and reset their pivot foot, so it's a travel to me. That's the spirit of the rule, at least IMO.

Never relinquished player control? How sure are you about that one?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If a player tosses the ball in the air, runs, then catches it then they never relinquished player control; and they lifted and reset their pivot foot, so it's a travel to me. That's the spirit of the rule, at least IMO.

4-12-1 . . . A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Sorry, but if you don't consider the toss to be a dribble, then the action doesn't meet the definiton of player control.

If you do consider the toss to be a dribble, then there is player control, but a player cannot travel during a dribble!

Seems that your position is untenable.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4-12-1 . . . A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

Sorry, but if you don't consider the toss to be a dribble, then the action doesn't meet the definiton of player control.

If you do consider the toss to be a dribble, then there is player control, but a player cannot travel during a dribble!

Seems that your position is untenable.

I don't consider the toss to be a dribble as it never hit the court, referee, or opposing team's backboard. Remember I'm the one disagreed with your definition earlier that this was an illegal dribble. It's a travel.

If a player tosses the ball in the air and catches it then it is not a shot, pass, nor dribble. If a player stands in one spot and tosses the ball up in the air a few times are you can saying he used up his dribble?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't consider the toss to be a dribble as it never hit the court, referee, or opposing team's backboard. Remember I'm the one disagreed with your definition earlier that this was an illegal dribble. It's a travel.

How much do you know about the history of the game? Do you know what an air dribble was?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How much do you know about the history of the game? Do you know what an air dribble was?

Don't remember that one. But I don't doubt there was such an animal. Was it legal or illegal?

[Nevadaref]

Made legal in 1892, but I don't know the exact year that it was taken out.

BTW dribbling on the floor wasn't legalized until 1898.

There is a good description of the air dribble on page 20 of the NFHS Basketball Handbook.

"But abuses became evident almost at once. Instead of bouncing the ball on the floor, clever players began to tap the ball upward and tapping it again as it came down in what later was called an "air dribble." Those adept at the trick would tap the ball only a few inches above their finger tips while advancing at full speed all the way into scoring position. There was usually no effective way of stopping this maneuver short of fouling. Soon there were rules limiting the dribble to one air dribble and preventing the resumption of any type of dribble once the player had ended his/her dribble by holding the ball in one or both hands."

The point is that this action has historically been considered a dribble. So that's why it is properly an illegal dribble violation. It pays to know your history.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is very similar to an official waiting to see if contact put a player at a disadvantage before calling a foul. The foul still took place at the time of the contact, not when the official blew his whistle. In fact, if such a play happens late in an NCAA game with access to a courtside monitor the official will reset the clock to the time of the contact, not the time of the call.

By what rule?

NCAA 5-10
The game clock and shot clock, if running, shall be stopped when an
official:
Art. 1. Signals:
a. A foul.
b. A held ball.
c. A violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is very similar to an official waiting to see if contact put a player at a disadvantage before calling a foul. The foul still took place at the time of the contact, not when the official blew his whistle. In fact, if such a play happens late in an NCAA game with access to a courtside monitor the official will reset the clock to the time of the contact, not the time of the call.

Originally Posted by sseltser

By what rule?

NCAA 5-10
The game clock and shot clock, if running, shall be stopped when an
official:
Art. 1. Signals:
a. A foul.
b. A held ball.
c. A violation.

By this rule!

2-13-3 (c)

Determine whether a foul occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock at the end of the first half, or at the end of the second
half/extra period only when necessary to determine the outcome of a
game. When it is determined that the foul occurred before the reading of zeros on the game clock, the official is permitted to put the exact time back on the game clock as to when the foul was committed.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Because that is precisely what make this action an ILLEGAL dribble.
A LEGAL dribble is one that contacts the floor. That is part of the definiton of how to dribble. Since this ball didn't contact the floor, the player dribbled in an illegal manner. It's really that simple. Read rule 4-15-2 and you will see that this action violates one of the provisions of a DRIBBLE. On the contrary, there is no provision of the traveling rule which one can point to and correctly claim to have been violated by this action.

Also consult 4.15.4 Situation D part (a) and notice that the new Case Book ruling contradicts with this long standing Case Book play and is basically the same action.

BTW your 'lift the pivot foot and then start a dribble' situation does fall within the purview of "while holding the ball" and thus the guiding principle for traveling. The player lifted his pivot while holding the ball and certainly released the ball to begin a dribble while holding it. The violation takes place at that time. The official simply has to wait to confirm that the action of the player was indeed a dribble and not a pass. So the call by the official has to be delayed. That is very similar to an official waiting to see if contact put a player at a disadvantage before calling a foul. The foul still took place at the time of the contact, not when the official blew his whistle. In fact, if such a play happens late in an NCAA game with access to a courtside monitor the official will reset the clock to the time of the contact, not the time of the call.

New here, so just an opinion from the new guy:

Section 4-44 (traveling) pretty well describes many positions where the pivot foot cannot be lifted prior to starting a dribble. In the OP, if the ball hits the floor (close to the dribbler, or 15 feet away and over his opponent's head) before he lifts his pivot foot, it is a legal dribble. We therefore have to wait and see if his pass over the opponent's head is a pass to himself which he catches, i.e., traveling, or if he let's it hit the floor, and then resumes a legal dribble by batting it again to the floor...a legal dribble. I think that 4-44-articles 1-5 describe that well enough.....

From the new guy's humble opinion....Bishopcolle

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

...... the pivot foot cannot be lifted prior to starting a dribble. In the OP, if the ball hits the floor before he lifts his pivot foot, it is a legal dribble.

4-44-3c: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.

When the ball hits the floor is not relevant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-44-3c: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.

When the ball hits the floor is not relevant.

Thank you.