Block / Charge Situation

[Texref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Where's your cite for this?

From the definition of guarding that I posted earlier. Do you not remember, or are you forgetting b/c it makes my point?

Rule 4 Sec. 35 Art 1 Defines Guarding - Guarding shall be the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. The guarding position shall be initially established and then maintained on the playing court.

If you don't consider the defense to be guarding, then LGP doesn't apply. If you consider them to be "guarding" then they must establish and maintain LGP. That is why the rules that tell you that fall under the guarding definition.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Texref

From the definition of guarding that I posted earlier. Do you not remember, or are you forgetting b/c it makes my point?

Rule 4 Sec. 35 Art 1 Defines Guarding - Guarding shall be the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. The guarding position shall be initially established and then maintained on the playing court.

If you don't consider the defense to be guarding, then LGP doesn't apply. If you consider them to be "guarding" then they must establish and maintain LGP. That is why the rules that tell you that fall under the guarding definition.

I'll have to find this tonight in the book, but I thought you were quoting NCAA rules.

Is it your contention that if A1 gets the ball, B1 is between him and the basket with one foot in the air, A1 can run by him and knock him over if he does it before B1 gets his foot down to establish LGP even though B1 is stationary?

[Texref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'll have to find this tonight in the book, but I thought you were quoting NCAA rules.

That is the NCAA rule. I believe that the HS rule is the same though. See next post!

[Texref]

High school rules to come to the same conclusion for the OP, BLOCK!

Rule 4-23-1 Defines Guarding: Guarding is the acti of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent.
Rule 4-23-2 Defines Initial LGP: To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent
Rule 4-35-1 Defines Player Location: The location of a player or nonplayer is determined by where the player is touching the floor as far as being:
a. Inbounds or out of bounds
Rule 4-9-1 and 2 Defines Inbounds/OOB: 1) Boundary lines of the court consist of end lines and sidelines. 2) The inside edges of these lines define the inbounds and out-of-bounds areas
Rule 4-7-1 Defines Blocking: Blocking is illegal personal contact which impedes the progress of an opponent with or without the ball
Rule 4-7-2a and b Defines Charging that we are talking about:
Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponents torso.
a. A player who is moving witht he ball is required to stop or change direction to avoid contact if a defensive player has obtained a legal guarding position in his/her path.
b. If a guard has obtained a legal guarding position, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player....

So, if you consider the defender in the OP to be "guarding," then that player has never established LGP b/c the player did not have both feet inbounds. If the player never established LGP, then the player is illegally in the path of the offense. If the defense is illegally in the path, then the defense is responsible for the contact.
You are arguing that the defender had LGP when by rule he didn't. Never established w/ both feet inbounds. If he did establish it at one point w/ both feet inbounds, then he had to have moved in order for a foot to end up OOB, in which case case play 4.23.3 B is the correct case which says that it is a BLOCK.

[Adam]

No, I'm not arguing the defender had LGP. I'm arguing LGP is not required. Your high school rule citation does not state a stationary defender has to gain and maintain LGP. At the very least, a player with inbounds status is entitled to his spot on the floor whether or not he has LGP. Do you deny this?

[Texref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, I'm not arguing the defender had LGP. I'm arguing LGP is not required. Your high school rule citation does not state a stationary defender has to gain and maintain LGP. At the very least, a player with inbounds status is entitled to his spot on the floor whether or not he has LGP. Do you deny this?

In order to be guarding you have to have LGP. That is why it is defined in the definition of guarding. It also states in that same rule (definition of guarding) what is required to obtain it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Texref

In order to be guarding you have to have LGP. That is why it is defined in the definition of guarding. It also states in that same rule (definition of guarding) what is required to obtain it.

This is just wrong. You're conflating the idea of guarding, as defined in 4-23-1 with the more specific "Legal Guarding Position" as defined in the rest of 4-23. You're also completely ignoring "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent." This comes prior to even a mention of LGP for a reason; it's the primary rule for judging contact.

LGP grants a player the ability to be innocent of contact even if they don't get to a spot first. I've never seen or heard anyone claim a stationary defender has to have LGP.


Consider this play: A1 gets the ball, B1 is between him and the basket with one foot in the air, A1 runs by him and knocks him over before B1 gets his foot down to establish LGP. Both players fall down. What's your call?

[Texref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

NFHS 4-23-1 Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

By NFHS rules the act of guarding does not require a guard to establish LGP. Merely placing himself in the opponent's path is sufficient. Articles 2 and 3 then go on to describe how to obtain LGP and what he is legally entitled to do once it has been obtained.

What is "legally placing the body in the path" mean to you then? You are falling back to the spot on the floor argument which I have refuted with the definition of Player Location. The player is not on the floor legally.