Double dribble?

[Back In The Saddle]

NCAA-W. A1 uses her dribble, then throws a short pass to A2. A2 doesn't see the pass coming and cuts the other direction. The ball bounces a couple of times. A1 hurries to the ball, is unsure of whether she can pick it up so she doesn't try to, but gets close enough that the ball bounces into her.

I called this a double dribble. Was I correct?

[Nevadaref]

I would say no because a dribble is more than a touch. It is a controlled movement. In this case, I would not penalize the player for the ball touching her. I would only penalize her for touching the ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would say no because a dribble is more than a touch. It is a controlled movement. In this case, I would not penalize the player for the ball touching her. I would only penalize her for touching the ball.

NFHS 4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

The Forum is a great learning tool. I've been officiating for twenty-seven years, and up until a few minutes ago, I would have called an illegal dribble in this situation.

Didn't we have a similar question a few weeks ago about a similar pass that accidently strikes a teammate and bounces back to the first player? Was it decided that this was illegal?

[Back In The Saddle]

It was also generally agreed that it's illegality was an obvious oversight in the rules, and that the act under discussion should not be illegal.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would say no because a dribble is more than a touch. It is a controlled movement. In this case, I would not penalize the player for the ball touching her. I would only penalize her for touching the ball.

Just to understand: Even though the ball went to the floor as a result of a controlled and deliberate movement (i.e., the pass), because she did not reach her hands out in an obvious attempt to touch the ball, it is not an illegal dribble? Even though she moved to the ball and placed herself in a position where she was touched by it?

What would you judge this act to be if not a dribble? It kinda meets the criteria of an interrupted dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

It was also generally agreed that it's illegality was an obvious oversight in the rules, and that the act under discussion should not be illegal.

Found it. I hope this isn't considered a hijack because it presents a similar situation.

Interrupted dribble situation

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Just to understand: Even though the ball went to the floor as a result of a controlled and deliberate movement (i.e., the pass), because she did not reach her hands out in an obvious attempt to touch the ball, it is not an illegal dribble? Even though she moved to the ball and placed herself in a position where she was touched by it?

What would you judge this act to be if not a dribble? It kinda meets the criteria of an interrupted dribble.

There is nothing illegal about a player running to any particular spot on the floor. Please don't try to penalize anyone for that.

Yes, I believe that this qualifies as an interrupted dribble once the ball is clearly out of player control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe that this qualifies as an interrupted dribble once the ball is clearly out of player control.

NFHS 4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler.

Are you sure? She deliberately threw a pass. The ball did momentarily get away from the her, but it was a pass. I certainly can see your reasoning, but I'm still not convinced.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler.

Are you sure? She deliberately threw a pass. The ball did momentarily get away from the her, but it was a pass. I certainly can see your reasoning, but I'm still not convinced.

When the "pass" did not go TO another player, but simply went into open space on the floor it became a dribble. Since it is clearly not in player control while it is momentarily beyond the reach of this player, it seems to me that it has to become an interrupted dribble.

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and
secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the
sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass.
Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the
court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing.
A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling. RULING:
Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a
dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass);
the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the
ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

[Back In The Saddle]

So an interrupted dribble, which occurs after the player's original dribble has been used is not an illegal dribble?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So an interrupted dribble, which occurs after the player's original dribble has been used is not an illegal dribble?

I see your point, BITS. However, if you are going to consider the "pass" to be a dribble, then you should sound the whistle and call a violation as soon as A1 begins the second dribble.

This is a strange play, but my opinion is still that it isn't a violation because it doesn't meet the intent and purpose of the rule. A1 was not trying to dribble a second time, nor was A1 trying to touch the ball after throwing it in the direction of A2.

Just my thoughts.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I see your point, BITS. However, if you are going to consider the "pass" to be a dribble, then you should sound the whistle and call a violation as soon as A1 begins the second dribble.

This is a strange play, but my opinion is still that it isn't a violation because it doesn't meet the intent and purpose of the rule. A1 was not trying to dribble a second time, nor was A1 trying to touch the ball after throwing it in the direction of A2.

Just my thoughts.

You're right, this was a strange play. Just trying to understand it a little better. Nobody said a word about the call at the time; but that does not mean I got it right.

Just for my edification: If the situation were a little different, if she had passed the ball and then gone and actually picked it up, now we have an illegal dribble, correct?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Just for my edification: If the situation were a little different, if she had passed the ball and then gone and actually picked it up, now we have an illegal dribble, correct?

Or travelling?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Or travelling?

How so? She was not holding the ball, which is fundamental to traveling.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You're right, this was a strange play. Just trying to understand it a little better. Nobody said a word about the call at the time; but that does not mean I got it right.

Just for my edification: If the situation were a little different, if she had passed the ball and then gone and actually picked it up, now we have an illegal dribble, correct?

Yes, that would clearly be a second dribble.

PS It's definitely not traveling, but sadly there are many officials who would call such.