Coach fails to replace dq'ed player

[just another ref]

Tonight, boys varsity. Black number 50 commits his fifth personal foul. Partner reports the foul, then tells coach 50 has 5. Coach asks a question about the foul, partner gives a brief answer. Coach nods. Everybody seems satisfied. But coach just keeps standing there. 50 keeps standing there on the court. Partner says 20 seconds. 5 seconds....horn 15 more seconds...horn Partner call a T on the coach for failing to replace his player. BUT, 22 black was standing at the X waiting to check in before the foul was ever committed, and continued to stand there until after the T call. Partner apparently wanted the coach to specify that 22 was to replace his fouled out player. I said as far as I knew, the coach had a sub standing on the X, so no further action or comment was necessary.
Right?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

YOu are correct as far as I can tell. Coach has been notified. And there's a sub ready to check in. So 50 leaves, 22 comes in, let's get the game going again. No need for a T here from what I can see.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Tonight, boys varsity. Black number 50 commits his fifth personal foul. Partner reports the foul, then tells coach 50 has 5. Coach asks a question about the foul, partner gives a brief answer. Coach nods. Everybody seems satisfied. But coach just keeps standing there. 50 keeps standing there on the court. Partner says 20 seconds. 15 seconds....horn 5 more seconds...horn Partner call a T on the coach for failing to replace his player. BUT, 22 black was standing at the X waiting to check in before the foul was ever committed, and continued to stand there until after the T call. Partner apparently wanted the coach to specify that 22 was to replace his fouled out player. I said as far as I knew, the coach had a sub standing on the X, so no further action or comment was necessary.
Right?

First, I hope that YOU typed this backwards, not that the timer did it backwards. It should be "5 seconds...horn, 15 more seconds...horn."

Secondly, there was an NFHS play ruling that says that if a sub from the team with the DQ'd player comes to the table, or is at the table, during the DQ interval, the official should ask who he is replacing.

Here it is:

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 3: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1;10-5-1d; 5-8-3b)

[BillyMac]

Black 50 became bench personnel when the head coach was informed that he had fouled out, but did anyone ever tell Black 50, as the rules state, that he had fouled out? It's not clear in the original post.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Tonight, boys varsity. Black number 50 commits his fifth personal foul. Partner reports the foul, then tells coach 50 has 5. Coach asks a question about the foul, partner gives a brief answer. Coach nods. Everybody seems satisfied. But coach just keeps standing there. 50 keeps standing there on the court. Partner says 20 seconds. 15 seconds....horn 5 more seconds...horn Partner call a T on the coach for failing to replace his player. BUT, 22 black was standing at the X waiting to check in before the foul was ever committed, and continued to stand there until after the T call. Partner apparently wanted the coach to specify that 22 was to replace his fouled out player. I said as far as I knew, the coach had a sub standing on the X, so no further action or comment was necessary.
Right?

This is a TF that could have been avoided.

1) Report the foul.

2) Notify HC of 50's 5th foul.

3) Signal time to start substitution timer.

4) Notify partners of 50's 5th foul.

5) Upon seeing 22 standing on the X, ask HC if 22 is replacing 50.
a) If yes, bring 22 into the game and get it restarted.
b) If no, get a subsitute in for 50 first and then bring in 22.

6) If, after the HC has given a no answer to the official's quesiton and still refuses to substitute for 50, then a TF by the HC has occured. By rule the officials could not have ordered 22 into the game to replace 50 so as to avoid charging the HC with a TF, but it would be worth a try.

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

First, I hope that YOU typed this backwards, not that the timer did it backwards. It should be "5 seconds...horn, 15 more seconds...horn."

Secondly, there was an NFHS play ruling that says that if a sub from the team with the DQ'd player comes to the table, or is at the table, during the DQ interval, the official should ask who he is replacing.

Here it is:

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 3: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1;10-5-1d; 5-8-3b)

Typed what backwards? Yeah, yeah, it was me. I fixed it. This situation seems to be more about granting the timeout than anything else.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Black 50 became bench personnel when the head coach was informed that he had fouled out, but did anyone ever tell Black 50, as the rules state, that he had fouled out? It's not clear in the original post.

Yes

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

This is a TF that could have been avoided.

1) Report the foul.

2) Notify HC of 50's 5th foul.

3) Signal time to start substitution timer.

4) Notify partners of 50's 5th foul.

5) Upon seeing 22 standing on the X, ask HC if 22 is replacing 50.
a) If yes, bring 22 into the game and get it restarted.
b) If no, get a subsitute in for 50 first and then bring in 22.

6) If, after the HC has given a no answer to the official's quesiton and still refuses to substitute for 50, then a TF by the HC has occured. By rule the officials could not have ordered 22 into the game to replace 50 so as to avoid charging the HC with a TF, but it would be worth a try.

MTD, Sr.

What makes it proper/necessary to ask? 22 had properly reported, giving his number which is all that a substitute is required to do, is it not? 3-3-1 If 22 wasn't originally in for 50, he is now. You have one player waiting to come in, and one who now must go out. This seems to me that it kinda resolves itself.

10-5-2: "The head coach shall replace or remove a disqualified player within 20 seconds when a substitute is available."

If a guy is at the X, I consider this obligation filled, regardless of when the guy got there.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What makes it proper/necessary to ask? 22 had properly reported, giving his number which is all that a substitute is required to do, is it not? 3-3-1 If 22 wasn't originally in for 50, he is now. You have one player waiting to come in, and one who now must go out. This seems to me that it kinda resolves itself.

I disagree. What if #22 was a point guard and #50 was a center. If you "force" this to be the substitution, you've put the team at an unintended disadvantage.

Just ask "is this your replacement?"

[WhistlesAndStripes]

I think once you notify the coach and see 22 at the table, you beckon him in. Look and see who leaves the floor. If it's 50, all is well. If not, follow the replacing player procedure.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I think once you notify the coach and see 22 at the table, you beckon him in. Look and see who leaves the floor. If it's 50, all is well. If not, follow the replacing player procedure.

But, isn't the replcement for 50 supposed to be the first player in, before any other subs can be allowed in?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What if #22 was a point guard and #50 was a center. If you "force" this to be the substitution, you've put the team at an unintended disadvantage.

I would agree there is no harm in asking "is this your replacement?" But, respectfully disagree with above. While I understand your point, I don't believe an official "forced" anything. Is our job to ensure there are five per team on the court or to ensure there are two forwards, two guards, and a center? What if the coach wanted to go with a smaller lineup? Isn't the coaches job to ensure he's got the proper lineup on the floor? If he's confused about his alignment and sees the problem he can also call a timeout after the replacement, right? JMO

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree. What if #22 was a point guard and #50 was a center. If you "force" this to be the substitution, you've put the team at an unintended disadvantage.

Just ask "is this your replacement?"

I agree there is no harm in asking. But since he didn't ask, and there was a substitute there waiting to come on the floor, I'm saying no way was the T justified. Agreed?

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I think once you notify the coach and see 22 at the table, you beckon him in. Look and see who leaves the floor. If it's 50, all is well. If not, follow the replacing player procedure.

That can't happen...

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But, isn't the replcement for 50 supposed to be the first player in, before any other subs can be allowed in?

...due to this reason!

[doubleringer]

I would agree that the T should have been avoided here. If a sub is at the table, bring them in. As far as forcing a guard to take a center's spot, that isn't my concern. My concern is making sure I have 5 players on the floor. If the wrong 5 are out there, the coach needs to take care of that.