Coach fails to replace dq'ed player

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Tonight, boys varsity. Black number 50 commits his fifth personal foul. Partner reports the foul, then tells coach 50 has 5. Coach asks a question about the foul, partner gives a brief answer. Coach nods. Everybody seems satisfied. But coach just keeps standing there. 50 keeps standing there on the court. Partner says 20 seconds. 15 seconds....horn 5 more seconds...horn Partner call a T on the coach for failing to replace his player. BUT, 22 black was standing at the X waiting to check in before the foul was ever committed, and continued to stand there until after the T call. Partner apparently wanted the coach to specify that 22 was to replace his fouled out player. I said as far as I knew, the coach had a sub standing on the X, so no further action or comment was necessary.
Right?

This is a TF that could have been avoided.

1) Report the foul.

2) Notify HC of 50's 5th foul.

3) Signal time to start substitution timer.

4) Notify partners of 50's 5th foul.

5) Upon seeing 22 standing on the X, ask HC if 22 is replacing 50.
a) If yes, bring 22 into the game and get it restarted.
b) If no, get a subsitute in for 50 first and then bring in 22.

6) If, after the HC has given a no answer to the official's quesiton and still refuses to substitute for 50, then a TF by the HC has occured. By rule the officials could not have ordered 22 into the game to replace 50 so as to avoid charging the HC with a TF, but it would be worth a try.

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

This is a TF that could have been avoided.

1) Report the foul.

2) Notify HC of 50's 5th foul.

3) Signal time to start substitution timer.

4) Notify partners of 50's 5th foul.

5) Upon seeing 22 standing on the X, ask HC if 22 is replacing 50.
a) If yes, bring 22 into the game and get it restarted.
b) If no, get a subsitute in for 50 first and then bring in 22.

6) If, after the HC has given a no answer to the official's quesiton and still refuses to substitute for 50, then a TF by the HC has occured. By rule the officials could not have ordered 22 into the game to replace 50 so as to avoid charging the HC with a TF, but it would be worth a try.

MTD, Sr.

What makes it proper/necessary to ask? 22 had properly reported, giving his number which is all that a substitute is required to do, is it not? 3-3-1 If 22 wasn't originally in for 50, he is now. You have one player waiting to come in, and one who now must go out. This seems to me that it kinda resolves itself.

10-5-2: "The head coach shall replace or remove a disqualified player within 20 seconds when a substitute is available."

If a guy is at the X, I consider this obligation filled, regardless of when the guy got there.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What makes it proper/necessary to ask? 22 had properly reported, giving his number which is all that a substitute is required to do, is it not? 3-3-1 If 22 wasn't originally in for 50, he is now. You have one player waiting to come in, and one who now must go out. This seems to me that it kinda resolves itself.

I disagree. What if #22 was a point guard and #50 was a center. If you "force" this to be the substitution, you've put the team at an unintended disadvantage.

Just ask "is this your replacement?"

[WhistlesAndStripes]

I think once you notify the coach and see 22 at the table, you beckon him in. Look and see who leaves the floor. If it's 50, all is well. If not, follow the replacing player procedure.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I think once you notify the coach and see 22 at the table, you beckon him in. Look and see who leaves the floor. If it's 50, all is well. If not, follow the replacing player procedure.

But, isn't the replcement for 50 supposed to be the first player in, before any other subs can be allowed in?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What if #22 was a point guard and #50 was a center. If you "force" this to be the substitution, you've put the team at an unintended disadvantage.

I would agree there is no harm in asking "is this your replacement?" But, respectfully disagree with above. While I understand your point, I don't believe an official "forced" anything. Is our job to ensure there are five per team on the court or to ensure there are two forwards, two guards, and a center? What if the coach wanted to go with a smaller lineup? Isn't the coaches job to ensure he's got the proper lineup on the floor? If he's confused about his alignment and sees the problem he can also call a timeout after the replacement, right? JMO

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree. What if #22 was a point guard and #50 was a center. If you "force" this to be the substitution, you've put the team at an unintended disadvantage.

Just ask "is this your replacement?"

I agree there is no harm in asking. But since he didn't ask, and there was a substitute there waiting to come on the floor, I'm saying no way was the T justified. Agreed?

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I think once you notify the coach and see 22 at the table, you beckon him in. Look and see who leaves the floor. If it's 50, all is well. If not, follow the replacing player procedure.

That can't happen...

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But, isn't the replcement for 50 supposed to be the first player in, before any other subs can be allowed in?

...due to this reason!

[doubleringer]

I would agree that the T should have been avoided here. If a sub is at the table, bring them in. As far as forcing a guard to take a center's spot, that isn't my concern. My concern is making sure I have 5 players on the floor. If the wrong 5 are out there, the coach needs to take care of that.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

I would agree that the T should have been avoided here. If a sub is at the table, bring them in. As far as forcing a guard to take a center's spot, that isn't my concern. My concern is making sure I have 5 players on the floor. If the wrong 5 are out there, the coach needs to take care of that.

I concur with the above statement. The "T" could have been avoided. Its up to the coach to make sure the correct player is in the game to replace a DQ player. If 22 was at the x, then he comes in and 50 goes out.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree. What if #22 was a point guard and #50 was a center. If you "force" this to be the substitution, you've put the team at an unintended disadvantage.

Just ask "is this your replacement?"

Bob:

Thanks for your support in this matter. The check is in the mail.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. But of course the reason you ask is to make sure that he is not a replacement for another player.

[Coach Bill]

Does the coach have to replace the player? Can he choose to play with 4? There was a scene in Hoosiers where Gene Hackman chose not to replace his fouled out player, even though there was an eligible player on the bench. Should that have been a technical?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Does the coach have to replace the player? Can he choose to play with 4? There was a scene in Hoosiers where Gene Hackman chose not to replace his fouled out player, even though there was an eligible player on the bench. Should that have been a technical?

A team must play with 5 if there are 5 eligible players.

That may or may not have been the rule in the time period Hoosiers was set.

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins
I disagree. What if #22 was a point guard and #50 was a center. If you "force" this to be the substitution, you've put the team at an unintended disadvantage.

Just ask "is this your replacement?"

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Bob:

Thanks for your support in this matter. The check is in the mail.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. But of course the reason you ask is to make sure that he is not a replacement for another player.

Why is there still any discussion about this? I've already posted the official NFHS play ruling, which says to do exactly as Bob has stated and for the reason that MTD writes.

So please follow the proper NFHS procedure, and remember to "Always listen to Bob."

[PAULK1]

First off I agree you need to make sure you have the sub the coach wants in the game for a DQ'd player. However I have not found where you must hold all other subs until the coach replaces the player. I do find the exception for FT that all players who have checked in may enter on the first throw of multiples as in 3.3.1c exception and in the mechanics manual page 40 under para 2.4.5 e "Substitues may be granted until the player has been replaced and the ball is about to become live."