Clock reads 0:00

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

By what rule do you exclude use of the console display?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Camron, check out 2-4-2.

Nevada, I'm not sure, but are you agreeing with Camron? 2-4-2 simply states the officials designate the "official timepiece" and official timer prior to the game. I would think the timepiece is the piece of equipment the timer controls during the game. In almost all gyms I've been in, the timer doesn't sit up on the wall, controlling the timepiece on the wall, but rather at the table, controlling the timepiece that sits there. The thing on the wall is simply a display, which happens to be attached to the official timepiece. In the rules, I believe it is called the visible game clock, not the official timepiece.

I've been in gyms where on one side of the gym the scoreboard/clock is new and shows tenths, while the scoreboard/clock on the other side is the old one, and does not show tenths. So, it is possible to have tenths information one place, and not another. Having it at the table, on the console (yet another display connected to the official timepiece) is just another example of that. Sure, it makes our job a little harder, but I don't see how we cannot use that display to determine things such as time has expired, or whether a shot can be attempted.

[Raymond]

• Rule 6-2 When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and 3/10 (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, no field goal may be scored by a try for goal. In this situation a tap could score. [/FONT]
• NOTE: This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

So what is the purpose of the note in the rule? Can someone please give an example of when we would have knowledge that less than 3/10 of a second remained but this rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

• Rule 6-2 When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and 3/10 (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, no field goal may be scored by a try for goal. In this situation a tap could score. [/FONT]
• NOTE: This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

So what is the purpose of the note in the rule? Can someone please give an example of when we would have knowledge that less than 3/10 of a second remained but this rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

It all hinges on the FED's definition of "clock" -- does it mean "what's on the wall" or "what's on the table"? (or if "either" show 1/10, then use the rule)

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So what is the purpose of the note in the rule? Can someone please give an example of when we would have knowledge that less than 3/10 of a second remained but this rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

Can you give me an example of how we would definitely know there are less than 3/10 remaining, but there are no displays giving us that information?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

What to do if you don't have a tiemout before the last second play, and therefore no opportunity to go to the table to check the 10ths left on the console? Are you going to make a point to walk over to the table to check the console? Or are you saying you will use the 10ths on the console only if you have an opportunity to check, ie a timeout?

If you have the clock stop showing 0:00, no horn, and continue to play; you're going to have at least one coach wonder why. You won't need to make it a point to go to the table, your presence will be required.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Can you give me an example of how we would definitely know there are less than 3/10 remaining, but there are no displays giving us that information?

That is my point. What is the purpose of the note?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That is my point. What is the purpose of the note?

If we don't have any knowledge of a specific number of tenths left, then we go back to a straight judgement call as to whether the shot left the shooter's hand before the horn. The rule effectively takes away that judgement on a shot if we definitely know there are only 2/10's left.

[Adam]

I'm still trying to resolve this. Why bother saying "the rule doesn't apply when...." when unless there is "knowledge" but the committee doesn't want us using that knowledge. The only time this might be a possibility is the OP; therefore it seems logical that the caveat must apply to the OP, therefore putting officials' judgment back into the play.

However, I can't imagine the committee wanting us to ignore definitive information when ignoring it could adversely impact the game (slow finger for the home clock keeper).

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you have the clock stop showing 0:00, no horn, and continue to play; you're going to have at least one coach wonder why. You won't need to make it a point to go to the table, your presence will be required.

Good point...like I have said I would probably use the information, I just would like the interp to be a little more clear...it still bugs me that there is no reason for that comment to be in the rule if this is the interp we are supposd to use..

[Adam]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Good point...like I have said I would probably use the information, I just would like the interp to be a little more clear...it still bugs me that there is no reason for that comment to be in the rule if this is the interp we are supposd to use..

Agreed.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If we don't have any knowledge of a specific number of tenths left, then we go back to a straight judgement call as to whether the shot left the shooter's hand before the horn. The rule effectively takes away that judgement on a shot if we definitely know there are only 2/10's left.

But doesn't that statement in the rule go without saying? If it isn't on the board and isn't on the console, isn't anywhere, then how do you know if there is 2/10ths, 9/10ths whatever? You obviously have to use your judgement as to whether he/she got the shot off...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

But doesn't that statement in the rule go without saying? If it isn't on the board and isn't on the console, isn't anywhere, then how do you know if there is 2/10ths, 9/10ths whatever? You obviously have to use your judgement as to whether he/she got the shot off...

I think the question is whether the display on the console counts as "definitive information", and we are therefore allowed to use it, even if it does not show on any of the visible game clocks and not visible to the players. I'm leaning towards saying yes it does.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

But doesn't that statement in the rule go without saying? If it isn't on the board and isn't on the console, isn't anywhere, then how do you know if there is 2/10ths, 9/10ths whatever? You obviously have to use your judgement as to whether he/she got the shot off...

If the note wasn't in the rulebook, you'd be having a bunch of people up in arms asking "but what if the clock doesn't display 10ths of seconds????". It fills in that blank. It just serves to cover all the bases. This is exactly the kind of thing a lot of people complain about wanting for other rules - because they don't cover all the possibilities. And so here's a case where the rule does cover it all and still people complain.

Common sense must prevail - if the clock (scoreboard OR console) shows .3 or less, you cannot allow a catch and shoot. It's simple.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If we don't have any knowledge of a specific number of tenths left, then we go back to a straight judgement call as to whether the shot left the shooter's hand before the horn. The rule effectively takes away that judgement on a shot if we definitely know there are only 2/10's left.

The rule is easy to interpret. The note is causing the problem. The note should reference a console that display 10th's when the scoreboard doesn't.

Just another example of a poorly written rule and a rule that needs a case play added.

Originally Posted by Smitty

And so here's a case where the rule does cover it all and still people complain.

No, it doesn't cover all bases. It doesn't specifically cover the console/scoreboard discrepency. If it covered all bases and was clearly written we wouldn't be having this debate.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The rule is easy to interpret. The note is causing the problem. The note should reference a console that display 10th's when the scoreboard doesn't.

Just another example of a poorly written rule and a rule that needs a case play added.



No, it doesn't cover all bases. It doesn't specifically cover the console/scoreboard discrepency. If it covered all bases and was clearly written we wouldn't be having this debate.

You're kidding me. You're so certain that the word "clock" only refers to the scoreboard that you would allow a catch and shoot when you absolutely know that there's only .2 seconds left in a quarter?

If you're saying that you would have a situation where the scoreboard is displaying 0:0 and the horn hasn't sounded, and you went to the table to check how much time is left on the console and the timer tells you .2 seconds - you wouldn't tell the coaches that there's only ,2 seconds left and therefore no catch and shoot will be allowed? You would actually allow a catch and shoot if you deemed the shot went off before the horn because the clock operator was a fraction of a second slow in starting the clock? To me, that would be all on you for allowing a clearly written rule to be broken. You're splitting hairs with the words clock and scoreboard when you have absolute knowledge that you cannot have a catch and shoot happen in the time left. That's just ridiculous.