Clock reads 0:00

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's not what I believe that matters. It's what any official could believe that's the concern. And the fact that this thread is going on bodes to that.

The rule may be clear to you but a official who's a newbie and working a JV game out in Timbuktu with another inexperienced official will not have the benefit of your wisdom to guide them. They will only have the rulebook. And the rulebook makes no mention of the possibility that a console will reflect a different time than the scoreboard.

The book would be 10,000 pages if it covered every possible nuance and spelled everything out in such detail that a 3rd grader could understand it. Our job to understand the rule and what it is for and apply it accordingly. Sure, that stuff must be learned but we really don't want that in the rule book...it comes from other sources...case books, mentors, peers, etc.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The book would be 10,000 pages if it covered every possible nuance and spelled everything out in such detail that a 3rd grader could understand it. Our job to understand the rule and what it is for and apply it accordingly. Sure, that stuff must be learned but we really don't want that in the rule book...it comes from other sources...case books, mentors, peers, etc.

To me the Case Book and Rule Book go hand-in-hand when discussing rules clarification. This is not a nuance. The equipment is set up like this in a lot of gyms. All it would take is a Case Play to alleviate any doubt. We're not talking about some convoluted scenario with a phlethora of variables. Just a straight forward "if the console has 10th's and the scoreboard doesn't then you do this in a) and this in b).

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

To me the Case Book and Rule Book go hand-in-hand when discussing rules clarification. This is not a nuance. The equipment is set up like this in a lot of gyms. All it would take is a Case Play to alleviate any doubt. We're not talking about some convoluted scenario with a phlethora of variables. Just a straight forward "if the console has 10th's and the scoreboard doesn't then you do this in a) and this in b).

BNR - I'm not trying to be a pain, but what rule or case are you using that is presenting any type of confusion as to whether the display on the console cannot be used?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

BNR - I'm not trying to be a pain, but what rule or case are you using that is presenting any type of confusion as to whether the display on the console cannot be used?

My first evidence is that several posters in this forum were not clear as to whether or not you should use the console.

Secondly, many refs, experienced and not experienced, may not even realize that it's even an option.

Thirdly, the language in the rule could be interpreted by a reasonably intelligent person to mean that you only use 10th's if it's seen on the scoreboard.

Sometimes we in the forum fail to realize we are the minority when it comes to officiating. Most officials don't spend as much time talking about the craft as we do. We have case plays for situations that are far less important and complex as this. So IMVHO this is something that should be addressed in the Case Book. No where else in the rule book (as far as I know) is it addressed that the clock and console could reflect different times. But now we are to assume that every official who wants on the court will instinctively realize what to do in this situation.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

For this one situation, sure....but what about all the other equally simple situational variations that can be conceived....how many times have you seen people here refuse to belive something because the exact same case (including the phase of the moon) was not precisely spelled out for them in the rule book? The fact is that some people need (or at least think they need) the entire set of possible situations to be explcitly defined where many are able to take a relatively simple framework, a basic understanding of the game itself, and common sense and correctly interpolate a ruling for nearly any situation that may occur. Neither are wrong, but the latter results in a concise and compact set of rules that can be understood (as apposed to a set of thousands of plays to memorize).

Then why do we have a Case Book? Should the criteria for Case Book submission be "only include something if the majority of the Official Forum on officiating.com don't understand the rule"? There are many case plays that for me aren't needed because I fully understand those rules as written. Should those case plays be deleted since I already understand them?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

No where else in the rule book (as far as I know) is it addressed that the clock and console could reflect different times.

Maybe that's part of the confusion - the clock and console don't show "different times", they show exactly the same time; it's just each display shows a different degree of accuracy.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Then why do we have a Case Book? Should the criteria for Case Book submission be "only include something if the majority of the Official Forum on officiating.com don't understand the rule"? There are many case plays that for me aren't needed because I fully understand those rules as written. Should those case plays be deleted since I already understand them?

I believe the Case Book plays are included because there is enough "real world" experience with confusion on how the rule(s) should be interpreted. In this play, even though there may be a little confusion as we discuss it, how many times do you think it has actually come up? Has this exact situation ever come up in a game you've officiated? I know it never has in my many years of officiating. So I'm sure they take into account how many times a particular rule or situation causes confusion, vs. covering all the possible scenerios.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

In this play, even though there may be a little confusion as we discuss it, how many times do you think it has actually come up? Has this exact situation ever come up in a game you've officiated? I know it never has in my many years of officiating.

I've had it occur a small number of times (maybe once every few years).....Whistle sounds, scoreboard shows 0:00, no horn...the next thing I do is to confirm with the timer that the auto-horn was enabled. I've had timers respond with...."Yes...and there are 0.4 seconds left on the clock." Great, and everyone knows how much time is left.

The likelihood of this happening is primarily dependant on a gym in your area having a board that doesn't show 10ths while the console does. Rarely do they mismatch. Only then do the odds of hitting the situation really come into play.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Maybe that's part of the confusion - the clock and console don't show "different times", they show exactly the same time; it's just each display shows a different degree of accuracy...

The fact that you say they are exactly the same and yet different at the same time speaks to the potential for confusion.

And to answer Camron's question, yes I have seen a few gyms with equipment like this. I'll call Mary and see what she has to say.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The fact that you say they are exactly the same and yet different at the same time speaks to the potential for confusion.

Well, they are saying the same thing; you just have to know how to listen to what they're saying. On most clocks that do not display tenths, you'll notice that when you set it at, say, 8:00, then turn it on, it immediately clicks down to 7:59. That doesn't mean that second went by instantaneously, but rather it is now 7:59.9, 7:59.8, 7:59.7, etc., until it gets to 7:59.0, then it changes to 7:58 when the time is 7:58.9, and so on. That is why you can have a clock show 0:00, but in reality there could be 0:00.5, 0:00.4, etc. left. The horn goes off when the time actually gets to 0:00.0. That's why the rule was put in that the horn determines the end of the period, not the clock showing 0:00. Both displays show the correct time; one just shows it in whole numbers while the other shows tenths.

Of course, the only time we need to accurate down to the tenths of a second is in a last-second shot situation, with the clock stopped, such as we are discussing. That's why clocks don't even bother displying tenths until it drops under a minute. Accuracy to the second is important most of the time, accuracy to the tenth is only important some of the time.

Now, I still haven't heard a good argument as to why we cannot use the display on the console, hence I don't see much confusion to this discussion.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And to answer Camron's question, yes I have seen a few gyms with equipment like this. I'll call Mary and see what she has to say.

If she doesn't answer right away, leave a message. I'm 99.873% sure she might not call you back. (Just trying to be as accurate as possible.)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

To me the Case Book and Rule Book go hand-in-hand when discussing rules clarification. This is not a nuance. The equipment is set up like this in a lot of gyms. All it would take is a Case Play to alleviate any doubt. We're not talking about some convoluted scenario with a phlethora of variables. Just a straight forward "if the console has 10th's and the scoreboard doesn't then you do this in a) and this in b).

For this one situation, sure....but what about all the other equally simple situational variations that can be conceived....how many times have you seen people here refuse to belive something because the exact same case (including the phase of the moon) was not precisely spelled out for them in the rule book? The fact is that some people need (or at least think they need) the entire set of possible situations to be explcitly defined where many are able to take a relatively simple framework, a basic understanding of the game itself, and common sense and correctly interpolate a ruling for nearly any situation that may occur. Neither are wrong, but the latter results in a concise and compact set of rules that can be understood (as apposed to a set of thousands of plays to memorize).