Multiple foul?

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

First of all, JS's scenario (B1 fouls A1, A1 then crashes into B2.) is not a multiple foul, just to be clear. It's a false double foul. A multiple foul is when more than one player foul the same opponent (B1 and B2 foul A1 at the same time). Having said that. . .

I've worked roughly 250 varsity high school games and roughly half that number of college games.

I've never, not even once, had a coach ask for a multiple foul.

I was trying not to describe it as a false double, guess I didn't do a very good job lol.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

I did......only because the ball was in mid air on a 74 foot pass and I wanted the throw in at half court.

Silly coaches. You should have asked for a double foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JS 20

IMO, they're seldom called b/c the official is unsure how to handle it.

I disagree. There are plenty of officials who would know how to handle this, and they'll never call it.

Originally Posted by JS 20

However, let's say A1's foul is on the arm (very visible to everyone) and A2's foul is w/ the body and the shooter goes to the floor. Then you better bring a better explanation to the coach on why you called one and not both.

Every coach understands you're going to, in most cases, pick one. In this case, I'll go with the harsher foul. In the once-in-a-lifetime instance where both players clobber the shooter, I might go with the multiple foul. Just tell the coach that both fouls had to be addressed. I've never seen this, though, and fouls that hard may also warrant the "X."

And yes, in my world, I'd be emailing my assigner that night so he wouldn't get blind-sided.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JS 20

I was trying not to describe it as a false double, guess I didn't do a very good job lol.

How about this: Near the end of the game, A1 is attempting to dribble out the clock. Trying to stop the clock, B1 and B2 both foul A1. That's a multiple foul. A1 would shoot 2 free throws, even if Team A was not yet in the bonus.

Or, near the end of the game, with Team A trailing 55-52, everyone in the gym knows that Team A is going to try to get the ball to A1 (their best shooter) for a 3 to tie. A1 is triple-teamed, but gets the ball and attempts a 3-point try. B1, B2 and B3 all foul A1 at the same time, trying to prevent the try. The try is unsuccessful. A1 will get 6 free throws, to tie or win the game!! Try selling that one.

Talk about a tough sell...

Depending on the level of play, be prepared for Team A to shoot 8 FTs (lane cleared) as Team Bs coach will most likely have to be stuck for coming unglued as he might not be able to relate to the rule.

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

How about this: Near the end of the game, A1 is attempting to dribble out the clock. Trying to stop the clock, B1 and B2 both foul A1. That's a multiple foul. A1 would shoot 2 free throws, even if Team A was not yet in the bonus.

Or, near the end of the game, with Team A trailing 55-52, everyone in the gym knows that Team A is going to try to get the ball to A1 (their best shooter) for a 3 to tie. A1 is triple-teamed, but gets the ball and attempts a 3-point try. B1, B2 and B3 all foul A1 at the same time, trying to prevent the try. The try is unsuccessful. A1 will get 6 free throws, to tie or win the game!! Try selling that one.

Wow, I don't know which of those would be worse to sell.

In that second scenario, unless the shooter hits the floor, B1 is holding a severed arm, B2 is holding a severed arm and B3 is holding a severed leg (or any combo thereof), NO THANKS!!!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why not?

And when we chose not to call them, when we see what "technically qualifies as a multiple foul" (your words), what do we tell the coach who wants two shots for his, or her, multiply fouled player?

Nothing. They'll never ask. The only time I can imagine them being interested in two fouls, and the only time I'd call multiple fouls, would be when both are so blatant that they can't be ignored....intentional/flagrant fouls, for example.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Of course, I'm not serious, I'm just pushing the envelope.

I am, however, curious. Curious about why at least one member of our Forum has "seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times, even several times in one game", yet these multiple fouls are seldom, if ever, called. I bet there are probably other Forum members who can say the same thing.

Anyone who has reffed more than a few games that says that it hasn't happened in their game either doesn't know the rule or is lying.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If ever questioned by a coach, and, so far, I never have, I would tell the coach that the fouls did not happen at the same time. That's how I rationalize it the few times that I may have seen something that looks like a possible multiple foul and not called it.

And you'd be wrong since the rule doesn't require the same time...only approximately. And "approximately" would cover the period of time that encompasses the entire act of shooting.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why haven't I called it? Probably because I don't want to appear to be an overly officious official.

That's a good reason. Another is that two fouls did not give any more advantage ot the defense than one alone.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

....

Anybody else want to offer an opinion as to why these very rare multiple fouls probably do occur, but are seldom, if ever called?

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Or, near the end of the game, with Team A trailing 55-52, everyone in the gym knows that Team A is going to try to get the ball to A1 (their best shooter) for a 3 to tie. A1 is triple-teamed, but gets the ball and attempts a 3-point try. B1, B2 and B3 all foul A1 at the same time, trying to prevent the try. The try is unsuccessful. A1 will get 6 free throws, to tie or win the game!! Try selling that one.

I had this play in a Rec game (8th grade boys) in my first year officiating. Team A was down by 3 points at the end of the game. Its best shooter attempts a 3-point shot as the clock runs out and two defenders foul him at the same time. I called only one foul, the kid missed one of the foul shots and the game ended.

Since it was my first year, I was not certain of the penalty for the multiple foul. Now that I know it, I would probably call the multiple foul. I say "probably" because I have discussed this play with many officials and I am still looking for one to say the "right" call is the multiple foul. They all tell me that no matter what the rule says ("approximately the same time"), I should pick only one player for the foul.

As for why it is not called on more conventional shots (when two defenders foul someone under the basket, for example), I think it is because the penalty is two shots total (one for each foul.) While the rule book call does increase the foul count for the team and both players, only the multiple foul on a 3-point try actually can give a team the chance for any "extra" points for the proper call.

[Back In The Saddle]

The reason is rule 11-1: Don't be a plumber.

[JugglingReferee]

I had this play in a Rec game (8th grade boys) in my first year officiating. Team A was down by 3 points at the end of the game. Its best shooter attempts a 3-point shot as the clock runs out and two defenders foul him at the same time. I called only one foul, the kid missed one of the foul shots and the game ended.

I've had once in my career a false double where I called both fouls.

Shooter goes up for the layup, get whacked on the arm. Tweet. Only problem is that B had roots and A hits B square on the torso. Called that one too.

I'd call it again, especially if the opposing player didn't obtain LGP. This is a particularly more dangerous play than a smack across the arm, as it affects how a person lands after being airborne.

Two defenders fouled the same guy at the same time? I might pass on one of the fouls if the contact was slight. But if both whacked him good - 2 fouls it is!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

The reason is rule 11-1: Don't be a plumber.

Sounds like a good reason to me, however the pages that contain 11-1 are missing from my NFHS rule book. Is this an NCAA, FIBA, or NBA rule? I bet it's probably in the Common Sense rule book, edited by Thomas Paine.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I've had once in my career a false double where I called both fouls.

Are you sure? From your posts, you sound like a veteran, who's seen a lot of "action". Haven't you made at least one, if not several, foul calls where a coach, or player, complains immediately after the call, and gets a technical foul? Depending on which coach, or player, does the complaining, that could be a false double, or a false multiple, foul.

False Double Foul
4.19.9 Situation C: A1 has a breakaway lay-up. B1 commits a hard foul against A1 from behind and is called for an intentional foul. The Team A head coach protests, feeling the foul should have been a flagrant foul and is assessed a technical foul. Ruling: Award A1's goal if successful. A1 shall receive two free throws with the lane spaces cleared. Any Team B player is then awarded two free throws for the technical foul. Team B will be awarded the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the scorers table.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I've had once in my career a false double where I called both fouls.

Billy beat me to it, but I bet you've called lots of false double fouls. A false double foul is simply when opponents foul each other, but not at the same time; and the second one occurs before the clock restarts.

A1 attempts a try and is fouled by B1. A1 completes the shooting motion, returns to the floor, then turns and pushes B1 in the chest. False double.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Billy beat me to it.

I didn't know it was a race?

Addendum to Title: And In The End, I Would Have Lost.