A rule that i can't find the answer for.

[Kirkleton]

I had it come up in a game a while ago...where a player takes a 3 point shot from outside the 3 point line, the defender jumps from inside the 3 point line and hits the ball with his finger tips and the shot still goes in.

Is this still counted as a 3 pointer or just 2?

I haven't been able to get a definate answer on this one

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Kirkleton

I had it come up in a game a while ago...where a player takes a 3 point shot from outside the 3 point line, the defender jumps from inside the 3 point line and hits the ball with his finger tips and the shot still goes in.

Is this still counted as a 3 pointer or just 2?

I haven't been able to get a definate answer on this one

3 points. Look in the early part of rule 5 (iirc) and the related cases where it talks about the value of baskets

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

3 points. Look in the early part of rule 5 (iirc) and the related cases where it talks about the value of baskets

Agree. Three points.

However, when the three point line was first added to the NFHS rules, wasn't there some question about this situation, and weren't there further rule changes, case book situations, or points of emphasis that cleared that up in a year or two?

[BayStateRef]

Rule 5-2-1.
Casebook 5.2.1 Situation C (b).

[Mark Padgett]

Think of it this way. Does the touch by the defender qualify as one of the definitions that a shot would end? No. Therefore the shot is still considered as the original shot when it goes through the basket and therefore is worth three points.

[caveman42]

It should count as 3 points.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Rule 5-2-1.
Casebook 5.2.1 Situation C (b).

BayStateRef: Thanks for the citations. For those coaches and/or fanboys who don't have a casebook:

5.2.1 Situation C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. Ruling: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

Again I ask, when the three point line was first added to the NFHS rules, wasn't there some question about this situation, and weren't there further rule changes, case book situations, or points of emphasis that cleared that up in a year or two?

Also, when the three point line was first added to the NFHS rules, wasn't there some question about whether of not the ball that went in from behind the three point line was a pass, or a shot, and, again, weren't there further rule changes, case book situations, or points of emphasis that cleared that up in a year or two, such as:

5.2.1 Situation B: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. Ruling: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

Come on Jurassic Referee, Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., and you other experienced, but not necessarily old, veterans. Am I dreaming about these early three point problems, or did they really exist?

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Also, when the three point line was first added to the NFHS rules, wasn't there some question about whether of not the ball that went in from behind the three point line was a pass, or a shot, and, again, weren't there further rule changes, case book situations, or points of emphasis that cleared that up in a year or two, such as:

5.2.1 Situation B: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. Ruling: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

The rule was changed in 2001 or 2002, if memory serves me. Previously the official had to deem the "pass" from beyond the 3-point line that went in the basket to be a try. The rule change allowed any "try, tap or thrown ball" from beyond the line that went in the basket to count for three points.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

The rule was changed in 2001 or 2002, if memory serves me. Previously the official had to deem the "pass" from beyond the 3-point line that went in the basket to be a try. The rule change allowed any "try, tap or thrown ball" from beyond the line that went in the basket to count for three points.

BayStateRef: Thanks. I was almost sure that I didn't dream about that problem with the new three point line.

Now, can you give us any insight to my other question about the new three point line? Did I dream it, or did we have a problem with a defensive player, jumping from the two point area of the court, touching a try from behind the three point line? Was this ever, even for a brief period of time, counted as two points? I'm almost sure that I didn't dream about this early three point problem, but as we all know, "almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades." (Imagine an image of a horseshoe and/or a hand grenade posted here)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Imagine an image of a horseshoe and/or a hand grenade posted here

I imagined that horseshoe and hand grenade being shoved up your picture-posting butt. I then imagined your hero, Chuck Elias, personally pulling the pin on the grenade.

I LIKE that picture!

Anybody else? Maybe we should have a poll.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I LIKE that picture! Maybe we should have a poll.

Hey. How about a little credit. I believe that haven't posted as image, as tempting as it's been, in almost twenty-four hours. I will be contacting the Guinness World Record people soon.

Jurassic Referee: Now that I've gotten your attention, can you help me out? In my opinion, you're one of our Forum rules changes experts. Was there ever a time, even for a very brief period of time, when a defensive player, jumping from the two point area of the court, touching a try from behind the three point line, where the try counted as only two points.

I keep getting hints from members about polls. Let me give it some thought. It could be a good substitute for images? I'll have to get back to you after I mull it over. Or we can have a poll about me starting polls. First I've got to figure out how this poll thing works. It took me quite a while to figure out how to work the image feature of this Forum. Much thanks to those members who helped me figure it out. I'm sure that all Forum members appreciate those members helping me out.

And it's ChuckElias, not Chuck Elias. That's like assuming that BillyMac (Official Forum), and Billy Mac (NFHS forum) are one in the same. As Felix said to Oscar, "You know what happens when you assume?", and I don't need any tempting to post an image of a donkey.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Was there ever a time, even for a very brief period of time, when a defensive player, jumping from the two point area of the court, touching a try from behind the three point line, where the try counted as only two points.

2) I keep getting hints from members about polls. It took me quite a while to figure out how to work the image feature of this Forum. Much thanks to those members who helped me figure it out.

3) And it's ChuckElias, not Chuck Elias.

1) Not to my recollection. BayStateRef gave you the right info above. Up to the 2001-02 season, to score a 3 on a ball tipped by a defender standing inside the arc, you had to rule that it was a "try" or a "tap". If you judged it to be a "pass" or a "throw", you scored a 2. In the 2001-02 season, the FED took the judgment out of the call by adding a "pass" or "throw" to the situations when you still score a 3.

2) Iirc, I was one of the members who showed you how to post pictures. I rank that as one of the dumbest things that I have ever done. As for polls, when it comes to officiating rules or mechanics, polls are about as helpful as some of the pictures you post.

3)

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Up to the 2001-02 season, to score a 3 on a ball tipped by a defender standing inside the arc, you had to rule that it was a "try" or a "tap". If you judged it to be a "pass" or a "throw", you scored a 2. In the 2001-02 season, the FED took the judgment out of the call by adding a "pass" or "throw" to the situations when you still score a 3.

The previous rule said nothing about the ball being tipped. Only a try or tap from beyond the arc could be scored as 3 points. If the official judged the play a pass (as in an alley-oop) that went in, it was 2 points. The rule changed added the words "thrown ball" so that anything launched from beyond the arc that goes in is 3 points.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

The rule changed added the words "thrown ball" so that anything launched from beyond the arc that goes in is 3 points.

......and any foul on the launch is 3 free throws for the launcher?

I remember 7-8 years ago when I was keeping book during our V boys at a rival gym.

We are tied with 5 seconds or so and make 1 of 2 at the line to go up by one. The second FT (miss) is rebounded by home team and A1 rebounds, turns and throws towards a WIDE OPEN A2 standing at mid court. B1 fouls A1 during the pass. 3 free throws. I remember exact words at the table. "Coach, white is losing with 5 seconds to go. Of course he was shooting a three."

Of course, 2 minutes later he ended up shooting 5.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CoachP

......and any foul on the launch is 3 free throws for the launcher?

I remember 7-8 years ago when I was keeping book during our V boys at a rival gym.

We are tied with 5 seconds or so and make 1 of 2 at the line to go up by one. The second FT (miss) is rebounded by home team and A1 rebounds, turns and throws towards a WIDE OPEN A2 standing at mid court. B1 fouls A1 during the pass. 3 free throws. I remember exact words at the table. "Coach, white is losing with 5 seconds to go. Of course he was shooting a three."

Of course, 2 minutes later he ended up shooting 5.....

At that time it was strictly a judgment call as to whether it was a shot or a pass. Of course the coach would disagree with the official's judgment. The call went against him.