Making Calls out of your primary.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Do you change this philosophy at all when working with junior or young, new refs?

Situation: I am one of the older, more experienced refs in two local youth, rec leagues. Often the assigner will match me up with new or very junior officials so I can help teach, mentor, etc. As has been discussed here, I like the "Oh my" vs the "Oh my god" theory, but should I be looking to help any more with a young novice vs an older pro? Or, do I just get with my partner at TO's, half, and after the game to discuss and not poach or call out of my area?

I obviously don't want to watch the entire court and want to stay in my P. Sometimes though, with the level of play and age of the players, I don't want the games to get out of hand. Thoughts?

I know certained esteemed members say they would never change their philosophy based upon the experience level of their partners. They would ref the exact same way with 2 Final Four officials as they would with brand-new JV HS officials.

[jeffpea]

while I used to fall into the "get the call right" philosophy of coming out of my primary when I saw a call that needed to be made....I've changed my thinking thanks to a summer of D1 camps. The consistent mantra was: "only call out of your primary for two reasons - 1) it's flagrant, and 2) it's a game decider (end of game situation). otherwise, STAY IN YOUR AREA!"

All the clinicians and assignors said that your better off letting your partner live or die with his call/non-call than you are reaching.....let him explain to a coach or observer why he did or did not make a call.

[JRutledge]

I would also like to add that if you are calling out of your area, it should not be very much at all. More like once a game for the crew otherwise let your partners live and die with calls.

Also my two reasons for calling out of my area are

1. If the play is non-basketball
2. If you know your partner was completely screened on the play

Peace

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Last Second Shot
Let’s let each other know when there’s less than a minute in each period. 99% of the time, the Trail will be responsible for the call. Let’s both have an opinion in case Trail’s not sure. How will we handle a full-court pass when the Trail is stuck in the backcourt?

Not to hijack the thread - somebody can chime in with a quick answer. As a refresher, I'm here from the baseball board, but have been known to stick a toe into the ice cold water of basketball.

Isn't it whoever is outside opposite table that takes a last second shot, not the trail? Could be C or T...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Not to hijack the thread - somebody can chime in with a quick answer. As a refresher, I'm here from the baseball board, but have been known to stick a toe into the ice cold water of basketball.

Isn't it whoever is outside opposite table that takes a last second shot, not the trail? Could be C or T...

The Center or Trail official has the last second shot responsibility (not sure what outside the opposite table means) if they are opposite table in 3 Person Mechanics. That is also if you are using NF and CCA Men's Mechanics of course.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also my two reasons for calling out of my area are

1. If the play is non-basketball
2. If you know your partner was completely screened on the play

Sounds like a good rule of thumb, rut. The only item I might (notice I said might) add is if a play was in your area but "slid over" into your partner's area and something happened just as the players crossed the imaginary line as you were turning your head. I think that's a given.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The Center or Trail official has the last second shot responsibility (not sure what outside the opposite table means) if they are opposite table in 3 Person Mechanics. That is also if you are using NF and CCA Men's Mechanics of course.

Peace

perhaps my terminology is a bit lacking

I meant... whoever is opposite table and not the Lead. By outside, I meant not under the hoop.

So, whoever is opposite table side in the T or C gets the horn.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

perhaps my terminology is a bit lacking

I meant... whoever is opposite table and not the Lead. By outside, I meant not under the hoop.

So, whoever is opposite table side in the T or C gets the horn.

Actually that only applies to the signal. The entire crew should have responsibility for the last second shot and give help or switch responsibility when needed.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

So, whoever is opposite table side in the T or C gets the horn.

Correct in FED and NCAAM.

In NCAAW, the center has the last shot, no matter whether C is table side or opposite.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

while I used to fall into the "get the call right" philosophy of coming out of my primary when I saw a call that needed to be made....I've changed my thinking thanks to a summer of D1 camps. The consistent mantra was: "only call out of your primary for two reasons - 1) it's flagrant, and 2) it's a game decider (end of game situation). otherwise, STAY IN YOUR AREA!"

All the clinicians and assignors said that your better off letting your partner live or die with his call/non-call than you are reaching.....let him explain to a coach or observer why he did or did not make a call.

Jeff,

That philosophy is the exact reason I chose not to pursue a career as a referee in college! I've talked to more than a fair share of D1 referees myself and they have the same philosophy but don't teach it in hopes that the future generations of college officials will not have the notion of going out and reffing with a survival attitude but instead with a team officiating approach.

You can say what you want about the pro game but they officiate with the idea of team officiating and being a good partner at hand. There are so many plays where you get closed off or a play leaves your primary and when you have a team officiating concept you aid the game, your partners, and yourself.

[btaylor64]

Let me touch up my last post. I didn't mean to make it sound like I dislike college refs. I have many that I truly respect and they are doing what they have to in order to get more games and make more money. I just totally dislike the philosophy of "let your partner live or die with that play". I'm not going to let my partner live or die with a block charge play when he comes up with no whistle on sufficient contact. He might have been caught by surprise and did not want to guess so in this case you aid the game, your crew and yourself and in that order by blowing on this play. What about plays where your partner is in good position to see a play and all of a sudden he spins or does something that takes him to a straight stack but you now have the best look in the house, I believe you owe it to, once again, the game, the crew and yourself to make a call if there is a foul.

I hope my partners never let me live or die with plays. I just ask them to do one thing. Be 100% sure, according to your teachings, that it is a foul. If you were sure then I am more than content with it.

When I go work college games, I love having crew members who aren't afraid to blow the whistle and will be aggressive. I love double whistles on plays that aren't completely obvious but are fouls non the less in dual coverage areas. I love hearing something other than the primary officials whistle on PnR plays. These plays are part of a team officiating approach and IMO it makes for an overall better report with your crew and a better officiated game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Let me touch up my last post. I didn't mean to make it sound like I dislike college refs. I have many that I truly respect and they are doing what they have to in order to get more games and make more money. I just totally dislike the philosophy of "let your partner live or die with that play". I'm not going to let my partner live or die with a block charge play when he comes up with no whistle on sufficient contact. He might have been caught by surprise and did not want to guess so in this case you aid the game, your crew and yourself and in that order by blowing on this play.

What if there was a flop? What if your partner passed on a play they did not think was a foul and it is in their area? I know I do that all the time and I do not want another official making a call that I clearly was passing on. Many times I see officials make calls in other official's areas, they are also wrong. And if someone is constantly caught by surprise, they may not need to be out there. That is especially true at the college level.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

What about plays where your partner is in good position to see a play and all of a sudden he spins or does something that takes him to a straight stack but you now have the best look in the house, I believe you owe it to, once again, the game, the crew and yourself to make a call if there is a foul.

If that is in the lane, then all the officials are likely looking there anyway. But if the play is up to in front of the T and I get a call from the C or L, then we have a problem.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I hope my partners never let me live or die with plays. I just ask them to do one thing. Be 100% sure, according to your teachings, that it is a foul. If you were sure then I am more than content with it.

Well if you are working with me and many other experienced officials (especially at the college level) there are not going to be a lot of officials looking in your area. So you are going to have to live and die with that call in the first place.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

When I go work college games, I love having crew members who aren't afraid to blow the whistle and will be aggressive. I love double whistles on plays that aren't completely obvious but are fouls non the less in dual coverage areas. I love hearing something other than the primary officials whistle on PnR plays. These plays are part of a team officiating approach and IMO it makes for an overall better report with your crew and a better officiated game.

I cannot speak for you, but this philosophy is not a "college philosophy." If anything it is an officiating philosophy. I do this along with several other high school officials I have worked with and it is talked about in pre-game meetings all the time. I have more high school tapes with officials that have never stepped on a college floor and they adhere to that way of calling the game clearly.

Peace

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Jeff,

That philosophy is the exact reason I chose not to pursue a career as a referee in college! I've talked to more than a fair share of D1 referees myself and they have the same philosophy but don't teach it in hopes that the future generations of college officials will not have the notion of going out and reffing with a survival attitude but instead with a team officiating approach.

You can say what you want about the pro game but they officiate with the idea of team officiating and being a good partner at hand. There are so many plays where you get closed off or a play leaves your primary and when you have a team officiating concept you aid the game, your partners, and yourself.

I first heard about this type of thinking (let your partner live and die w/ his calls) a couple of years ago and it was an "East Coast" mentality. As the paychecks for D1 games have increased significantly in the last few years....and since I don't yet receive them and would definitely like to....I'll do what the supervisor of the league I'm working in that night dictate my actions. I'd like to think the crew would "get the call" right - that's ALWAYS the goal! However, I'm smart enough to know that in the crazy world of officiating, you can be right and wrong all at the same time.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

I first heard about this type of thinking (let your partner live and die w/ his calls) a couple of years ago and it was an "East Coast" mentality. As the paychecks for D1 games have increased significantly in the last few years....and since I don't yet receive them and would definitely like to....I'll do what the supervisor of the league I'm working in that night dictate my actions. I'd like to think the crew would "get the call" right - that's ALWAYS the goal! However, I'm smart enough to know that in the crazy world of officiating, you can be right and wrong all at the same time.

That would be a very true statement and it is indeed a crazy world! sad as it is, but you're right you have to do what you have to do to survive and make those big $$$$$. That's the name of the college game.

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

I first heard about this type of thinking (let your partner live and die w/ his calls) a couple of years ago and it was an "East Coast" mentality. As the paychecks for D1 games have increased significantly in the last few years....and since I don't yet receive them and would definitely like to....I'll do what the supervisor of the league I'm working in that night dictate my actions. I'd like to think the crew would "get the call" right - that's ALWAYS the goal! However, I'm smart enough to know that in the crazy world of officiating, you can be right and wrong all at the same time.

Jeff, I understand where you're coming from and wanting to get the call right, that is what all of us want. What I like to think about is why we have primary coverage areas. We have primary coverage areas because those are the parts of the floor we can see and get good angles with. When you go out of your primary you probably don't have the best look at the whole play. At camps this summer I've heard statistics that when we go across the lane as L we are wrong much more than we are right. That's why we have primary coverages.

Last season I helped out another veteran crew in the area. I knew them only by reputation before we met for the ride. Early in the game I was L and one of the veterans was C. There was a HUGE crash to the floor on a drive around the second lane space opposite from me. It looked like crap from my perspective and there wasn't a whistle. Being new to the crew, I passed and asked about it at a dead ball. The defensive player took a dive and it was no-called. Had I gone out of my primary to make what looked like the right call to me (probably a PC) I would have been dead wrong.