No Timeouts - end of the game

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Unfortunately in this business, even though deep down we want to do the CORRECT AND APPROPRIATE thing, we cannot always exercise it. Take these two examples below and you tell me which is the b>CORRECT and APPROPRIATE call

1. You walk pass the headcoach and he whisper in your ears, "F**k you"

and

2. you walk pass the headcoach and he screams "F**k you" (loud enough for the 1st row can hear it).

What would you guys have done?

In my honest opinion and correct me if I"m wrong, I'll ignore the 1st scenaior because no one but me heard the F BOMB. Is it the right thing to T the headcoach, sure it is. Am I going to whack him? NO because I'll NEVER win that battle against. HE/SHE will lie up the a55 and say "I never said that." My word against their word - they win.

Second scenario is different because he/she said it loud enough. Am I going to whack him? HELL FREAKING YES.

F you? Flagrant technical in both scenarios, no matter how it happens.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The officials actually took a ton of a crap for missing that traveling call. That was, plain and simple, a blown call. However, it wasn't a deliberately blown call.

See how times change. Nowadays, college officials deliberately blow 20 traveling calls per game. It's true, it's true.

http://forum.officiating.com/showpos...9&postcount=13

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

I'll ignore the 1st scenaior because no one but me heard the F BOMB. Is it the right thing to T the headcoach, sure it is. ...

Not sure how long you've been officiating, but I promise you lots of abuse in the future once word gets around that you have ZERO ba11s and are willing to take that from a coach at ANY volume.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Take these two examples below and you tell me which is the CORRECT and APPROPRIATE call

1. You walk pass the headcoach and he whisper in your ears, "F**k you"

and

2. you walk pass the headcoach and he screams "F**k you" (loud enough for the 1st row can hear it).

What would you guys have done?

In my honest opinion and correct me if I"m wrong, I'll ignore the 1st scenario because no one but me heard the F BOMB. Is it the right thing to T the headcoach, sure it is. Am I going to whack him? NO because I'll NEVER win that battle against. HE/SHE will lie up the a55 and say "I never said that." My word against their word - they win.

Second scenario is different because he/she said it loud enough. Am I going to whack him? HELL FREAKING YES.

My honest opinion is that I personally would never dream of letting a coach, player, or anyone connected to a team EVER get away with saying "f**k you" to me. Under any circumstances. And if an official working for me ever told me that he ignored a coach saying "f**k you" because that coach did it quietly, then that official would never do another meaningful game for me if I had anything to do about it. If an official ignores something like that, then that official can be intimidated....and the coach knows it.

That's my honest opinion.

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Not sure how long you've been officiating...

I'd like to think he's been at it for a while since he knows what works in HS versus College. Or maybe he's from SoCal where it only takes 3 years to get a DI schedule. Might not stick but you can get in

One thing is for sure, Mwanr1 doesn't seem to think too highly of things only the officials hears.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

it's not loud enough for anyone to hear it except for you, I would probably think twice.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

I'm arguing that if I'm the only person in the entire gym that hears the timeout, I'm going to hold my whistle until he make it loud or obvious enough to grant it.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

I'll ignore the 1st scenaior because no one but me heard the F BOMB.

I hope he doesn't share the same philosophy for things that only the ref sees.

Can't make that off ball call... nobody saw it but me.
I didn't call the OOB violation because I thought I was the only one who saw it.

[Tio]

I think the crew needs to be aware of the timeout situation. I always keep track of when a team burns both it's 30 sec. timeouts so you immediately send the teams into a full rather than take the time to ask the coach (who usually is worried about his team once you grant the timeout). An aside, in my first 4 year college game, the coach did this and I sat there waiting and got no indication before granting a full timeout. This of course burned the first media timeout which pissed the coach off and was not a good start for me this night! Just something to think about moving forward......

By rule in the NCAA,

Rule 2, Section Art. 15. Notify a team and its head coach when a team takes its final
allowable charged timeout

Meaning, the crew should know when a team takes a timeout and the head coach should be aware his/her team is out of timeouts. We has a crew need to be 100% sure that a team is asking for a timeout.... many teams have plays that sound similar (especially in a packed gym). If this is the case a conversation should come up during a dead ball amongst the crew....... in summary we should never be surprised by something that happens in the game.

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I'd like to think he's been at it for a while since he knows what works in HS versus College. Or maybe he's from SoCal where it only takes 3 years to get a DI schedule. Might not stick but you can get in

One thing is for sure, Mwanr1 doesn't seem to think too highly of things only the officials hears.


I hope he doesn't share the same philosophy for things that only the ref sees.

Can't make that off ball call... nobody saw it but me.
I didn't call the OOB violation because I thought I was the only one who saw it.

Chi,

If I see it, then I'll NEVER EVER IGNORE it. Remember - tapes don't lie. Most of the time coaches drop F bomb on officials because they are losing and use dirty tactics to screw with our career. They are given far more opportunities to screw up than us. If we are smart enough to not let them bait us, then we'll outlast them.

[Y2Koach]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Unfortunately in this business, even though deep down we want to do the CORRECT AND APPROPRIATE thing, we cannot always exercise it. Take these two examples below and you tell me which is the b>CORRECT and APPROPRIATE call

1. You walk pass the headcoach and he whisper in your ears, "F**k you"

and

2. you walk pass the headcoach and he screams "F**k you" (loud enough for the 1st row can hear it).

What would you guys have done?

In my honest opinion and correct me if I"m wrong, I'll ignore the 1st scenaior because no one but me heard the F BOMB. Is it the right thing to T the headcoach, sure it is. Am I going to whack him? NO because I'll NEVER win that battle against. HE/SHE will lie up the a55 and say "I never said that." My word against their word - they win.

Second scenario is different because he/she said it loud enough. Am I going to whack him? HELL FREAKING YES.

As a coach, when my team is down by 20 and being screwed by the refs who are cheating and making my team lose, I really appreciate it when a ref allows me to whisper stuff in his ear as he runs by. I remember one game when the refs made my team miss 14 out of 22 freethrows, and I whispered to him "you punk b*tch ref you f*ckin should have called a f*ckin lane violation cuz we don't f*ckin miss easy a$$ f*ckin freethrows this sh!t is f*ckin b*ll$h!t you p*$$y b*tch moron". I said it politely and only he could hear, so he let it slide.

In a true story, in a summer league game several years back, my team made a layup to pull within 1, 5 seconds or so left on the clock. I have no TO's left. As the ball goes in, I start to loudly request a time out. The new L official in front of me looks over his shoulder inquisitively and does not grant my request. I keep requesting my time out with increasing urgency. With about 1.3 left on the clock, the other official (trail) from across the court on the end line grants my TO, as he had seen me requesting it the whole time. He also puts the clock back at 4 seconds. Other team makes one misses one. We deflect the inbounds pass, pick up the loose ball and one of their defenders fouls my PG as he is heaving a 30 foot runner at the horn. 3 FTs, we win the game. As the refs head to the seats behind the scorers table to prepare for the next game, the trail ref smacks the other ref behind the head and says "give him his time out"... haha...

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Unfortunately in this business, even though deep down we want to do the CORRECT AND APPROPRIATE thing, we cannot always exercise it. Take these two examples below and you tell me which is the b>CORRECT and APPROPRIATE call

1. You walk pass the headcoach and he whisper in your ears, "F**k you"

and

2. you walk pass the headcoach and he screams "F**k you" (loud enough for the 1st row can hear it).

What would you guys have done?

In my honest opinion and correct me if I"m wrong, I'll ignore the 1st scenaior because no one but me heard the F BOMB. Is it the right thing to T the headcoach, sure it is. Am I going to whack him? NO because I'll NEVER win that battle against. HE/SHE will lie up the a55 and say "I never said that." My word against their word - they win.

Second scenario is different because he/she said it loud enough. Am I going to whack him? HELL FREAKING YES.

How the hell does the coach win here, you T'ed him and the other team is shooting two and gets the ball. If that is winning in your book, I wanna play on another team. Also, if your assignor is worth a damn, he'll believe you long before he believes a coach.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

We always exercise our personal judgement even if the rule is perfectly clear.

What if the player said, "I DIDN'T CALL A TIME OUT, I said 'sideout'!" If the headcoach request for it, then it's a different case.

Coming from a coach, I might buy it (unlikely, though). From a player, though? I've never heard one of them shout "sideout" during play.

Your evaluator would also question your game-awareness. "Chi, you know White doesn't have any more time out, why did you grant it?"

I'd like to think that my evaluator would, I dunno, back me up for following the rule here. Game awareness is knowing how many TOs a team has left and knowing how many fouls each team has committed. Game awareness does NOT include changing your calls because of those numbers!

Grant the time out if the player says it "loud enough" (now with that you really need to use your judgement) or if he/she signals the time out. Game tape will always back you up if the player signals it, but cannot prove that he said timeout.

If you're worried about the 'consequences' of a he said-she said with some teenager over a timeout request, you might be in the wrong business.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

1. You walk pass the headcoach and he whisper in your ears, "F**k you"
I'll ignore the 1st scenaior because no one but me heard the F BOMB.

Let's see here. It's just you and a coach in the parking lot after the game. He takes out a gun and kills you. According to your logic, he shouldn't be prosecuted because no one but you were killed. Yeah - that makes sense.

BTW - what's a scenaior?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Unfortunately in this business, even though deep down we want to do the CORRECT AND APPROPRIATE thing, we cannot always exercise it. Take these two examples below and you tell me which is the b>CORRECT and APPROPRIATE call

1. You walk pass the headcoach and he whisper in your ears, "F**k you"

and

2. you walk pass the headcoach and he screams "F**k you" (loud enough for the 1st row can hear it).

What would you guys have done?

FWIW, I'd probably T the coach in both cases.

That said, comparing this to the TO situation isn't even apples and oranges - it's more like comparing pomegranates and fried chicken. Unsporting technical fouls are ALWAYS judgement calls on the part of the official(s) involved. Whether the player/coach requested a timeout is a fact, pure and simple.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Tio

I think the crew needs to be aware of the timeout situation. I always keep track of when a team burns both it's 30 sec. timeouts so you immediately send the teams into a full rather than take the time to ask the coach (who usually is worried about his team once you grant the timeout). An aside, in my first 4 year college game, the coach did this and I sat there waiting and got no indication before granting a full timeout. This of course burned the first media timeout which pissed the coach off and was not a good start for me this night! Just something to think about moving forward...

I don't understand how this was your fault. Are you saying that any time-out taken before the 1st media time-out of either half should be assumed to be a 30-second T/O?

[lpneck]

Mwanr1-

I believe you are taking good advice that you have heard from accomplished officials, and misinterpreting that advice.

You have some idea about situational game awareness, and that is a good thing. There are those that argue that you don't need to know things like the number of timeouts remaining, the team/player foul situation, and even the score of the game. That is bad advice. Any information about your game that you can be aware of will make you do a better job on the game. And I do agree that not all situations have to be handled exactly the same every single time they occur, but don't overthink the situation at hand.

As you said- tapes don't lie. If there is a player visibly requesting a time-out when they don't have one left, and it's obvious you have seen the request, you better get it.

There ARE situations where this can be handled differently- let's say during a dead ball, where a player walks up to you, and says, "time out." I might respond "are you sure- you don't have any left."

Same with your response to a coach. It is definitely true there is a difference between what a coach does if you are the only person to hear their comments vs. a coach that everyone in the gym can hear. I have had situations where I have had a coach curse up a blue streak right behind me and I have ignored it, and I have had situations where a demonstative, wildly gesticulating coach never uttered a swear word, and I have called a technical. I'm not a believer in "magic words," or "automatic techs."

But if a coach is directly addressing me, and manages to get the phrase "f*** you" out, that is about as close to automatic as I get- and it doesn't really matter to me who else heard it. Your credibility is shot if you don't take care of business here. Do you really think that story won't get out in the coaching circles? "And then I told the guy that he could go f*** himself, and he STILL didn't even do anything!"

[Scrapper1]

Not sure I should resurrect this old thread, but I read something recently that related directly to the original topic. I'm reading a book on "Great NBA Finishes", games that had great comebacks or unusual endings. One of the games was Game 5 of the 1976 NBA Finals. This was the Suns/Celtics triple OT game. Here's why I'm posting about it:

With the score tied at 95 [near the end of the 4th quarter] (Perry and Havlicek free throws), Dave Cowens deflected a Suns inbounds pass and Paul Silas tried to call for a timeout, unaware the Celtics had none left. Referee Richie Powers would not acknowledge the request. If he had, the Suns would have been shooting a potential game-winning technical foul.

It was a non-call that was still stuck in the Suns' craw months, years, even decades later.

"About two weeks later, a local Phoenix golf pro named Joe Porter was playing in the Westchester Classic," reports Jerry Colangelo, then the general manager and later the team's CEO. "He saw Richie Powers at the bar and he asked him why he didn't call that timeout. He said that Richie said, 'I didn't want Boston to lose like that.' If you ask me do I think he meant 'I didn't want Boston to lose like,' or '[I didn't want] anyone to lose like that,' I'll say the latter."

Coach John MacLeod was not nearly so charitable. What do I think he meant?" he inquires. "BOSTON! He didn't want Boston to lose. I'm still angry."

I just thought this was interesting to see both sides. Here's an NBA referee who thought he was helping the game, the opposing team thought the game was taken away from them. Not sure if anyone will find it interesting, but it relates directly to the thread, and many of us didn't actually see that game and remember it.

That entire passage is quoted from a Boston Globe report by Bob Ryan, just to credit the original author.