No Timeouts - end of the game

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Team A has no TOs left ... Team A down 2 and tries to call time out ... do you grant it and then proceed with the tech or since you have knowledge that they have none left do you ignore the request?

From the NFHS Basketball Handbook under Chronology of Basketball Rules:
1978 -- "officials' must grant a time-out request, even though it is excessive."

[cdaref]

The mistake that seems to be being made here is that people are presuming the coach doesnt know he or she is out of time outs and by not granting the timeout we are somehow saving them from an unintended T. Problem is, there are times when the coach is doing it on purpose and it makes sense. Thus the rule is as it is--you see it, you confirm it is a request for TO, you grant it. Which is also why you simply cant embrace the advice that you should not pay attention to time outs. In fact, just the opposite is true (I hope the experienced refs will agree) that you should definately have the game awareness and situational awareness to know time outs and fouls. The good practice at the end of the game is to tell coaches how many they have remaining. That takes you out of teh judgement call of wondering whether they are making a mistake or not. You see it, grant it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by cdaref

The mistake that seems to be being made here is that people are presuming the coach doesnt know he or she is out of time outs and by not granting the timeout we are somehow saving them from an unintended T. Problem is, there are times when the coach is doing it on purpose and it makes sense. Thus the rule is as it is--you see it, you confirm it is a request for TO, you grant it.

Agree 100% to this point.

Originally Posted by cdaref

Which is also why you simply cant embrace the advice that you should not pay attention to time outs. In fact, just the opposite is true (I hope the experienced refs will agree) that you should definately have the game awareness and situational awareness to know time outs and fouls. The good practice at the end of the game is to tell coaches how many they have remaining. That takes you out of teh judgement call of wondering whether they are making a mistake or not. You see it, grant it.

This I disagree with very strongly (and I believe that most experienced officials do too).
Only inform the coach when the team has used its final time-out. Other than that an official can have an awareness of how many and of what type remain, but stating such to a coach only exposes the official to a HUGE problem if he is mistaken.
Bottom line stick with "see it/hear it, grant it" and stay away from giving extra information to the coaches. Managers and assistants can communicate with the table for that. Afterall, that's their job.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Agree 100% to this point.
This I disagree with very strongly (and I believe that most experienced officials do too).
Only inform the coach when the team has used its final time-out. Other than that an official can have an awareness of how many and of what type remain, but stating such to a coach only exposes the official to a HUGE problem if he is mistaken.
Bottom line stick with "see it/hear it, grant it" and stay away from giving extra information to the coaches. Managers and assistants can communicate with the table for that. Afterall, that's their job.

Agree. We ain't scorekeepers. There's no need for us to do their job either.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Only inform the coach when the team has used its final time-out.

Amen.

[comical]

As a scorekeeper at a D-III school for the women's and men's teams, I will tell the officials when a team is out of timeouts and when a team has one left. Regarding situations when a team has one left, sometimes the officials ask for this information; otherwise, I volunteer it. When I mention that a team has one left without being asked, some seem to appreciate being told, some don't seem particularly interested. And there are times when I'm asked by an official to provide the information for each team, regardless of how many timeouts are left.

While I see some of the officials several times a year, my memory isn't good enough to remember from one time to the next if an official seemed to want to know when a team was down to one timeout. So I provide that information and let the official use it (or not use it) as he or she sees fit.

Does this seem appropriate? Would it be a good idea to ask the official who checks the book before the game begins how this should be handled? Or it would be best to only provide the information about timeouts left if and when I'm asked? (as long as I always remember to tell the officials when a team has used its last timeout). Thanks in advance.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by comical

Does this seem appropriate? Would it be a good idea to ask the official who checks the book before the game begins how this should be handled? Or it would be best to only provide the information about timeouts left if and when I'm asked? (as long as I always remember to tell the officials when a team has used its last timeout). Thanks in advance.

I say do what works best for you. Telling the officials that a team only has 1 TO may be a subconcious way of keeping your own head in the game. It may also trigger the opposing scorekeeper to check his/her book and make sure you 2 are on the same page (pun intended). But don't break your routine if it hasn't brought you any problems so far.

Me? I don't tell a team how many TO's they have left until they reach 0. But it doesn't bother me if a scorekeeper provides extra information. I store it away and now I know that the next time that team's uses a TO that they are done. Or if the game goes to OT I know that the team has 2 left.

[cdaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This I disagree with very strongly (and I believe that most experienced officials do too).
Only inform the coach when the team has used its final time-out. Other than that an official can have an awareness of how many and of what type remain, but stating such to a coach only exposes the official to a HUGE problem if he is mistaken.
Bottom line stick with "see it/hear it, grant it" and stay away from giving extra information to the coaches. Managers and assistants can communicate with the table for that. Afterall, that's their job.

Nevada, other than disagreeing about telling them the number of TOs remaining, do you agree that it is good awareness to know fouls and timeouts? Or do you just want to know when they are on their final time out?

I'm interested to hear this comment, and I appreciate your prior one as well.

I can certainly relate that (though I havent taken a poll) that my experience is that the other varsity officials up here in North Idaho all near the end of the game will at a time out or some other stoppage, check with the book and clock to make sure everything is right and also do a time out check and communicate time outs remaining to both coaches. But now that I think about it, I am not sure that this practice is as widespread as I believe it to be. And I certainly trust your input if you think this is a bad idea.

Now you've got me thinking...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by cdaref

Nevada, other than disagreeing about telling them the number of TOs remaining, do you agree that it is good awareness to know fouls and timeouts? Or do you just want to know when they are on their final time out?

I'm interested to hear this comment, and I appreciate your prior one as well.

I can certainly relate that (though I havent taken a poll) that my experience is that the other varsity officials up here in North Idaho all near the end of the game will at a time out or some other stoppage, check with the book and clock to make sure everything is right and also do a time out check and communicate time outs remaining to both coaches. But now that I think about it, I am not sure that this practice is as widespread as I believe it to be. And I certainly trust your input if you think this is a bad idea.

Now you've got me thinking...

I see no problem with gathering information and making sure the books jibe. But what is the purpose of telling a coach how many times-out they have? It can't be preventive officiating b/c telling a coach he/she has 3 T-O's doesn't prevent anything.

[cdaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I see no problem with gathering information and making sure the books jibe. But what is the purpose of telling a coach how many times-out they have? It can't be preventive officiating b/c telling a coach he/she has 3 T-O's doesn't prevent anything.

That is an excellent question. Its just somethign I have always done and the officials I work with do. I've never even questioned it before. But I respect the people here and I am certainly going to think about that...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by cdaref

That is an excellent question. Its just somethign I have always done and the officials I work with do. I've never even questioned it before. But I respect the people here and I am certainly going to think about that...

I was just curious...figured you picked it up from the folks who taught you but I was just wondering if anyone ever said why they did it.

[Nevadaref]

Finding a convenient time in the last few minutes to confirm with the scorer that there are no bookkeeping mistakes is an excellent idea. The officiating crew does not want to be hanging around on the floor at the end of a tight ballgame to make sure of this. When I have this brief chat in the last couple of moments, I always let the scorer know that I will make eye contact after the final horn and if all is good to give me a thumbs up or a head nod. This allows me to approve the final score and know that there aren't any mistakes to be fixed and also lets my crew get the heck out of there quickly.

As for your other question, my personal opinion is that the more information that you have the better job that you can do officiating the game. Therefore, I try to know how many time-outs each team has taken and of what type (our crew actually breaks this up: R has fulls for both teams, U1 30s for home, U2 30s for visitor), how many team fouls there are, what the score is, how much time is on the clock, and yes, even how many fouls there are on individual players. The last one is a bit controversial and opinions will vary. Mine happens to be that I want the extra information as one never knows when it could be important, such as when a scoring error pops up and the R has to make a decision.

Finally, I will again state that all of this info is for ME and my duties. I do not pass any of it along to the coaches and players. Nor do I normally let my partners know. That kind of info just overloads a lot of officials and doesn't help their game. So I don't burden them with it. If something comes up, I can be of assistance. Of course, I do have partners who are like me and we will share this info during the game.

So in summary, track all of the info that you wish during a game, but keep it to yourself.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I see no problem with gathering information and making sure the books jibe. But what is the purpose of telling a coach how many times-out they have? It can't be preventive officiating b/c telling a coach he/she has 3 T-O's doesn't prevent anything.

I also agree that this is not a big deal. I do not like going to the table to constantly find out information the teams already have access to. If nothing is going on, I might go over to the table, but likely near the end of the game I am talking with my partners about the situation in the game.

Peace

Why do you need to know how many fouls a player has committed? j/k

[Johnny Ringo]

But, if a team calls a timeout and you know they have none left you still grant it - but a technical is charged correct?