no timeouts

tim harris · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 12, 2003, 10:57am

a=offense b=defense

hello all,
im a rule interpeter here in virginia and i just wanna thank you guys and gals for all your help!

here is my question: one of my basketball officials called and asked me about a situation that happened in his game last night.

game tied "A" has ball "A" has just called there last
timeout with 9sec. left. mr g the gentlemen that called me said his partner went over and informed the team that they have no more timeouts. the game is tied at this point. after timeout mr g gives the ball to "A" for the throw in when a player from team "A" throws his hand up for a timeout. mr g said no more t.o. for you guys and immediately partner comes in and gives a "T" for the team calling a T.O. immediately mr g knew the game situation here and he talked too his partner, lets ignore his timeout and put the ball in play, because we both no they dont have any timeouts left. so why give it and if we call this "T", this is no way for a team too loose a game. the game went into triple overtime. and of course i got a call from the athletic director and he said my guys did and excellent job.

this is my question.

how would you guys have handled this situation?

Lotto · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 12, 2003, 11:24am

Under NCAA rules, you can't ignore the time-out request here---you must grant it and call the T. NF rules may be different.

Rule 5-12. Excessive Timeout
Art. 1. Timeouts in excess of the allotted number may be requested and shall be granted at the expense of an indirect technical foul charged to the offending team for each taken.

The use of the word "shall" ("...shall be granted...") indicates to me that the officials must grant the request if made.

LarryS · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 12, 2003, 11:24am

Sorry to dissappoint Mr G., but Coach A was informed he had no remaining TOs...it is his job to pass that information on to the players. I grant the TO request and assess the T for the excessive TO. To be blunt about it, Mr G. knew the game situation and decided to put team B at a substantial disadvantage by choosing to ignore the rules.

The decision may have cost team B the game and definetly cost them the opportunity to win in regulation. The only reason I say it may have cost B the game is because while your defense may be able to stiffle B's hotshot during a live ball, their best FT shooter can overcome the defense with a couple of clutch shots and team B did have the opportunity to make adjustments during the game.

Seems to remember an NCAA Tourny game decided by this same thing.

tim harris · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 12, 2003, 11:46am

thanks larry for the insight, the games are all about situations and how you handle them, i just wanna make sure this never happens again and everybody is on the same page when they on the court.

Jurassic Referee · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 12, 2003, 12:10pm

The NFHS rules references are R10-1-7 and Casebook play 10.1.7. Note that it's a team T,with no indirect charged to the head coach.

mick · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 12, 2003, 04:38pm

Yes, by rule

Grant the time out
and

Assess the Techincal foul

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 12, 2003, 08:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Yes, by rule
Grant the time out
and

Assess the Techincal foul

Agreed.

fletch_irwin_m · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 10:57am

As posted earlier, I am going to disagree a little bit.
I spoke with our assignor/interpreter about my earlier situation and this is what he said and I agree. (of course!)
Don't let the officials decide the game. If you know they have no TO's left, don't give it to them. If it is just one player asking there are 4 still trying to get the ball in play. If the person with the ball is asking, then you will have a 5 second call most likely and then a turn over. This would allow the PLAYERS to decide the game. In my case my partner granted the TO in the back court with 4 seconds left. Had he ignored it, the clock would have run out with no 10 sec violation or we would have had a foul, either way the PLAYERS decided the game, not us.
Also, I believe I recall in our rules meeting that a TO is not a TO until the official GRANTS the TO.
Now feel free to filtet me like a fish!! <><

Rich · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 11:08am

The problem with this is that the coach is entitled to that timeout. It is specifically in the rulebook that the coach can buy a timeout with a technical foul.

What you and your assignor is doing is breaking basic rules of basketball, plain and simple.

Filleted enough?

Jurassic Referee · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 11:29am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
The problem with this is that the coach is entitled to that timeout. It is specifically in the rulebook that the coach can buy a timeout with a technical foul.

What you and your assignor is doing is breaking basic rules of basketball, plain and simple.

Filleted enough?

Rich,please let me add that they are also screwing the other team by not giving them the 2 FT's and possession that they deserved.They have just put themselves into a situation where the OFFICIALS may have decided that game.That is wrong,wrong,wrong!

mick · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 11:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
As posted earlier, I am going to disagree a little bit.
I spoke with our assignor/interpreter about my earlier situation and this is what he said and I agree. (of course!)
.Don't let the officials decide the game.

...Yet your assignor wants you to decide the game.
That's an "Owee!", fletch.

JRutledge · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 12:49pm

There are many times when the table does not tell you the amount of timeouts or your partners might not inform you either. You always grant timeouts when requested, regardless of your knowledge of the team's status. If that one kid asks for a timeout, someone realized that he or she asked for it. Someone other than you or your partner's. You always grant them, no matter what!!! But I will say if an assignor tried to put my feet to the fire and say not grant them, I might then just call the timeout and if he does not want me to work for him based on that one thing, I will move on.

Peace

RookieDude · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 01:03pm

If I may "pile on" here...
The players DID decide the game...when they requested the excessive timeout.
Basketball is not only about athletic skill but, intelligence and knowledge of the game.
TO's are a part of this game.
(Grant the TO if requested)

Dude

fletch_irwin_m · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
There are many times when the table does not tell you the amount of timeouts or your partners might not inform you either. You always grant timeouts when requested, regardless of your knowledge of the team's status. If that one kid asks for a timeout, someone realized that he or she asked for it. Someone other than you or your partner's. You always grant them, no matter what!!! But I will say if an assignor tried to put my feet to the fire and say not grant them, I might then just call the timeout and if he does not want me to work for him based on that one thing, I will move on.

Peace

I feel properly fileted! A couple of things: 1. The key to the whole discussion is knowledge of the TO situation. If I don't know or have doubt, I give it too them in a hurry. If I do know they are out I w a i t a w h i l e before granting. 2. Ifit is EXTREMELY obvious (in my game it wasn't) that they are calling TO I don't think I have a choice. You can always go back to th UM/UNC Chris Webber TO as one that is obvious and had to be granted. But what if it was Steve Fisher asking for a TO and the players kept playing?
Either way it is a dicy situation.

Hawks Coach · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 04:52pm

I am a Michigan fan, and hate to say it, but it doesn't matter who requested the TO. If they can legitimately request the TO, you HAVE TO grant it. The coach's job is to know and to ensure his players know.

And you never know how things will turn out. As Tom Arnold said on BDSSP (under things you shouldn't say to a Michigan fan) "Good thing Chris Webber called that stupid TO, cause otherwise you would have had to pull down a national championship banner."