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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2008, 01:16pm
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The original post reminded me of something I heard in line at the grocery store a few weeks ago. There were two teenage girls ahead of me. One said to the other, "I can't help it. I like, like him."
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2008, 01:24pm
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T-dawg is just skurred to be throwing techs, he still a little wet behind the ears.I explained all this to him last night and he's still arguing with me. HAHA! Someday he'll learn!

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2008, 01:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRef21
Later in the second half as we are lining up for Ft's no. 24 tells one his players to " Chin Check" the other guy. I told the kid why are you telling him to chin check him. No. 24 responed, ref you don't even no what a chin check is. I was like you know, I'm older than you and know what it is and don't tell your teammate that. Now you are on the edge.
Me, instead of engaging in conversation, I would have said loudly to my partner "Watch #24 and #???"(whoever #24 was talking to). That would get the players attention without any unnecessary verbiage or exchanges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRef21
So with a minute left his team is down by 2. no. 3 black fouls and we are in the bonus. As we are lining up for ft's, no.3 black starts saying things about the call and I was like, " What did you say"? He was like nothing ref, I said thats right you said nothing.
Why would you ask #3 what he said? What purpose does that serve? If you heard what he said then respond appropriately--warning, technical, ignore--whatever the case may be. But if you didn't hear something then don't go looking for a fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRef21
So now other guys are complaining and no. 24 is still talking when it doesn't even relate to him. I was like you know something guys ( to both teams), you guys aren't in the NBA and not that great yet, so stop complaining. No. 24 now pops off again and still won't stop. I was like now you are borderline. Still won't be quiet and keeps ranting and raving, so my partner and I at the same blow the whistles and ding him. I tech him, pitch him, and his team loses by 5.
If you make a smart-a$$ comment to a player you best believe he will have a response and/or will complain to his/her coach. Me, I know exactly what I would have said to #24--"you already have 1 tech". That's it. There would have been no other reason for me to say anything. He would have either shut up or earned a 'T' after that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CLH
T-dawg is just skurred to be throwing techs, he still a little wet behind the ears.I explained all this to him last night and he's still arguing with me. HAHA! Someday he'll learn!

But he's in SoCal and has 3 years of experience, right?
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:28pm.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2008, 02:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Me, instead of engaging in conversation, I would have said loudly to my partner "Watch #24 and #???"(whoever #24 was talking to). That would get the players attention without any unnecessary verbiage or exchanges.
That's a good one that seems to always work.

Quote:

But he's in SoCal and has 3 years of experience, right?
ouch...that's gonna leave a mark.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2008, 02:42pm
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Tommy,

You got way too confrontational with the players, especially when these are 9th graders for AAU ball. If they mouth off at each other, whack both of them. Their 1st T is their first warning. I'd like what BadNewsRef said, say it loudly to your partner "Watch #24 and #???"(whoever #24 was talking to). This would usually alarm them to play ball rather talk. If they cross the line of sportsmanship again, then whack them but use your T wisely and make sure it is a good one. You are always doing the right thing by issuing deserved T's despite of what fan/coaches/players think.

At camps, assignors/coordinators/observers like to see guys who can manage the game, especially at the higher level. Don't tolerate BS, take care of it! If you can't handle 9th graders, what makes your college assignors think you can handle young adults at the JC or higher level? The whole thing about these are 9th graders and you don't work this level is BS - I know you can do better than that.

Call your assignors tonight (after supper when he's relaxed and comfy) and chat briefly with him how the tournament went. Don't bring up why he pulled you off the game. He did it for a reason so let it be. Just let him know you are there to assist him for future tournaments and if you do this, chances are you'll gain more respect from him.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2008, 04:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwanr1
Tommy,

You got way too confrontational with the players, especially when these are 9th graders for AAU ball. If they mouth off at each other, whack both of them. Their 1st T is their first warning. I'd like what BadNewsRef said, say it loudly to your partner "Watch #24 and #???"(whoever #24 was talking to). This would usually alarm them to play ball rather talk. If they cross the line of sportsmanship again, then whack them but use your T wisely and make sure it is a good one. You are always doing the right thing by issuing deserved T's despite of what fan/coaches/players think.

At camps, assignors/coordinators/observers like to see guys who can manage the game, especially at the higher level. Don't tolerate BS, take care of it! If you can't handle 9th graders, what makes your college assignors think you can handle young adults at the JC or higher level? The whole thing about these are 9th graders and you don't work this level is BS - I know you can do better than that.

Call your assignors tonight (after supper when he's relaxed and comfy) and chat briefly with him how the tournament went. Don't bring up why he pulled you off the game. He did it for a reason so let it be. Just let him know you are there to assist him for future tournaments and if you do this, chances are you'll gain more respect from him.

mwanr1 makes a good point. you have to manage the game here. I understand your hesitance(sp?) to throw, what sounds to be, the best player on the floor out. It's hard to do, but think about the next guy that has to ref him... what kind of box are you putting him in? even kobe gets tossed every once in a while... I will piggyback off what badnewsref has already said, if it is just 24 you are problem with, you announce that you have had enough and that if he says anything else you are ejecting him, while also announcing it loud enough to your partners where not only they hear you but the coaches, and if you are lucky, the fans can here you as well so when you toss him everyone in the gym is like, "dang the ref told him not to say anything else". You can also put a little acting job in there as well. after you blow the whistle to eject the kid add some more verbage like, "you can't say that to me" or "that's too much" or "I've already warned you" and then announce the T and the ejection.

To backtrack a bit, when you tell 24 you've had enough and announce it loudly try not to do it in a demeaning way. I don't know how to explain it really but most people know when they've done something in a demeaning way. Like I've seen refs warn coaches before and I have seen it look like the ref was demeaning and showing up the coach and i've also seen it where it looked like nothing more was going on then the coach was just being warned and nothing else was happening. That is what you are striving for. You want it to appear that you are in full control of the situation but that you are not overbearing and abrasive, if that makes sense.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2008, 04:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
mwanr1 makes a good point. you have to manage the game here. I understand your hesitance(sp?) to throw, what sounds to be, the best player on the floor out. It's hard to do, but think about the next guy that has to ref him... what kind of box are you putting him in? even kobe gets tossed every once in a while... I will piggyback off what badnewsref has already said, if it is just 24 you are problem with, you announce that you have had enough and that if he says anything else you are ejecting him, while also announcing it loud enough to your partners where not only they hear you but the coaches, and if you are lucky, the fans can here you as well so when you toss him everyone in the gym is like, "dang the ref told him not to say anything else". You can also put a little acting job in there as well. after you blow the whistle to eject the kid add some more verbage like, "you can't say that to me" or "that's too much" or "I've already warned you" and then announce the T and the ejection.

To backtrack a bit, when you tell 24 you've had enough and announce it loudly try not to do it in a demeaning way. I don't know how to explain it really but most people know when they've done something in a demeaning way. Like I've seen refs warn coaches before and I have seen it look like the ref was demeaning and showing up the coach and i've also seen it where it looked like nothing more was going on then the coach was just being warned and nothing else was happening. That is what you are striving for. You want it to appear that you are in full control of the situation but that you are not overbearing and abrasive, if that makes sense.
I can't figure out how you do what you're saying without being demeaning. You can't loudly tell a player to knock it off without being demeaning. And really, you don't need to sell this to the fans or anyone else.

If you've decided to have a few words directly with a player make sure it's between you, the player and your partner either at that moment or shortly after. The coach may or may not be included, they don't always help. No need to get loud or put on a show, just tell him exactly what he's doing wrong and how he needs to change his behavior. Then drop it. If you've decided the player's just a jerk go to the captain ot some other team mate you trust & tell him to get his player in line.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2008, 04:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I can't figure out how you do what you're saying without being demeaning. You can't loudly tell a player to knock it off without being demeaning. And really, you don't need to sell this to the fans or anyone else.

If you've decided to have a few words directly with a player make sure it's between you, the player and your partner either at that moment or shortly after. The coach may or may not be included, they don't always help. No need to get loud or put on a show, just tell him exactly what he's doing wrong and how he needs to change his behavior. Then drop it. If you've decided the player's just a jerk go to the captain ot some other team mate you trust & tell him to get his player in line.
i don't mean you are saying it loud enough directly while looking at the player. I should have explained it better. when you say it loud enough you are looking at one or both of your partners and saying, "guys i've had enough from 24" but really and truly nothing should have to be said after the first T.

I do truly believe there is a way to do this in a non-overbearing or abrasive way, while not being demeaning as well.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2008, 04:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
i don't mean you are saying it loud enough directly while looking at the player. I should have explained it better. when you say it loud enough you are looking at one or both of your partners and saying, "guys i've had enough from 24" but really and truly nothing should have to be said after the first T.

I do truly believe there is a way to do this in a non-overbearing or abrasive way, while not being demeaning as well.
Well, I don't want to go around & around on this but when you say "I've had enough" you've made it personal and you leave yourself open to interpretation & argument. I prefer "Hey 24 knock off (whatever he's doing)" or "Hey partner let's keep our eye on 24 he's (whatever)" or "Hey captain, have a talk with #24 he's gonna cost you because he's (whatever)"

We do agree we can do this without being abrasive or demeaning, we just don't agree that your way will get us there
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 27, 2008, 06:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
You can also put a little acting job in there as well. after you blow the whistle to eject the kid add some more verbage like, "you can't say that to me"
Please don't do this. This is exactly the kind of behavior that leads morons to say, "You're not the show, you know!" Because if you do that nonsense, you are putting on a show. It's absolutely unnecessary. It doesn't make you look any better. Just take care of business. Everybody can see through theatrics, including an assignor. Just follow the rules in a professional manner and you'll go far. Put on a show and you look like a clown. JMO
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 28, 2008, 07:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwanr1
Tommy,

You got way too confrontational with the players, especially when these are 9th graders for AAU ball. If they mouth off at each other, whack both of them. Their 1st T is their first warning. I'd like what BadNewsRef said, say it loudly to your partner "Watch #24 and #???"(whoever #24 was talking to). This would usually alarm them to play ball rather talk. If they cross the line of sportsmanship again, then whack them but use your T wisely and make sure it is a good one. You are always doing the right thing by issuing deserved T's despite of what fan/coaches/players think.

At camps, assignors/coordinators/observers like to see guys who can manage the game, especially at the higher level. Don't tolerate BS, take care of it! If you can't handle 9th graders, what makes your college assignors think you can handle young adults at the JC or higher level? The whole thing about these are 9th graders and you don't work this level is BS - I know you can do better than that.

Call your assignors tonight (after supper when he's relaxed and comfy) and chat briefly with him how the tournament went. Don't bring up why he pulled you off the game. He did it for a reason so let it be. Just let him know you are there to assist him for future tournaments and if you do this, chances are you'll gain more respect from him.
Good point Marco. You know at camp, I would never do that. I wanted to try some other method of communication with these guys. You know being 9th graders they are a bunch of smart asses. However I didn't take that into consideration. That was my mistake. I do feel it was wrong for both us to be pulled off those two games though. Yes my actions were inappropriate, but after working the 1st of 3 games, an assignor should come out in the floor and dressed ready to work with his new partner, and tell us that the admin is still upset about what happened. An assignor would let us finish the games. If we get a call the day before than thats fine. I was upset because the assignor is a friend and did that to my partner and I.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 28, 2008, 08:45pm
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These may be helpful to TRef21. I tried to email it to him in a private message, but it was too long, so for those of you who have seen these before, please ignore this post.

Technical Fouls
Top Reasons To Not Give A Technical Foul
• You can address a coach before it becomes a problem. A quiet word can go a long way in preventing a technical foul.
• When coaches complain, ask yourself, is the call questionable, is the call wrong. If they have a legitimate gripe, then allow them some latitude. Be courteous. Do not argue. Be firm and fair
• If you know a coach is upset then move away from him or her, even if it means that you and your partner are not switching or rotating properly.
• Warnings can be very effective in preventing situations from escalating. Don't tolerate a lot before a warning.
• Lend a reasonable ear. Coaches like to be heard. If you ignore them then they become more frustrated and are more likely to lose control.
• If an assistant is out of line, then you can speak to the head coach and ask them to help you out.
• If a player is out of line then let the coach know. Tell them you've warned their player. That way if you do give a technical foul, then the coach isn't surprised. Most good coaches will speak to the player first.
• If you have had a rough day and know your fuse is short, keep that in mind before you do anything rash. Ask yourself, does the situation come under one of the top reasons to give a technical foul.
• If necessary, give an initial strong warning. Let your partner know about the warning.
Top Reasons To Give A Technical Foul
There are many different factors to consider when deciding to give a technical foul. Generally, there are
three areas of coach's behavior that need attention: when a coach makes it personal, when a coach
draws attention to himself or herself, and when a coach's complaints are persistent. Some technical
fouls are easy. They are black and white situations that leave little room for negotiation:
• Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar, or obscene.
• A coach questions your integrity.
• Inciting an undesirable crowd reaction.
• A coach is embarrassing an official.
• A coach or player has been warned and has not heeded the warning.
• Leaving the confines of the coaching box and complaining.
• A coach demonstrates displeasure with your partner and their back is turned.
Other technical fouls are not as black and white. In some situations, a warning may be appropriate before
the technical foul is given:
• A coach or player continually demonstrates signals or asks for calls.
• If they have interfered with the game or your concentration, then they have usually gone too far.
• If giving a technical will help give structure back to the game and if it will have a calming effect on things.
Top Ways To Give A Technical Foul
• Calling a technical foul should be no different then calling any other foul. It is simply a rule that requires a penalty. Maintain a calm attitude, have poise and presence. Don’t personalize it. Don't embarrass the coach by being demonstrative.
• Take your time. Don’t over react. Always sound the whistle and stop the clock with a foul signal. Signal the technical foul. Take a deep breath to calm yourself. Proceed to the reporting area, report the technical foul clearly to the table, and leave the area. Never look at a coach when you give a technical foul.
• Confer with your partner. If the technical foul is charged to the head coach or bench personnel, have your partner inform the coach of the loss of the coaching box.
• Explanations, it needed should be done by partner. Always explain technical fouls on players to coaches.
• Proceed with the administration of the penalty. After technical fouls, put the ball in play immediately. Because a coach has been penalized with a technical foul does not mean that the coach is allowed rebuttal time.
• Make them earn the second technical foul. Don't be reluctant to give the second technical foul if it is warranted.
• Do not discuss a technical foul or an ejection of a player or coach beyond the confines of the gymnasium. Doing so is very unethical. The penalty is enough.

Communication With Coaches
General Techniques:
• Statements by coaches don’t normally need a response. Answer questions, not statements.
• Let the coach ask their question first, before speaking. Be a responder, not an initiator.
• Most coaches will have questions when they believe the officials have missed an obvious call.
• Having the officials in closer proximity often calms down the coach.
• Be in control and speak in calm, easy tones. Be aware of your body language; maintain positive and confident body language.
• Make eye contact with the coach when the situation allows.
• Do not try to answer a question from an out of control coach; deal with the behavior first.
• If you’ve missed a call or made a mistake; admit it. This technique can only be used sparingly, perhaps once a game.
• Don’t bluff your way through a call.
• Do not ignore a coach.
Specific Communication Examples:
Coach sees the play very differently than the official:
“Coach, if that’s the way it happened/what you saw, then I must have missed it. I’ll take a closer look next time.”
“Coach, I understand what you’re saying, however, on that play, I didn’t see it that way. I’ll keep an eye for it on both ends.”
“Coach, I had a good look at that play and here’s what I saw [short explanation].”
“Coach, I understand what you’re saying, but my angle was different than yours.”
“Coach, I had a great look at that play, but I understand your question and I’ll have the crew keep an eye on it.”
“Coach, I had that play all the way and made the call.”
Coach believes you’re missing persistent illegal acts by the other team:
“OK coach, we’ll watch for that.”
“Coach, we are watching for that on both ends of the court.”
Coach is questioning a partner’s call:
“Coach, that’s a good call, as a crew we have to make that call.”
“We’re calling it on both ends.”
“Coach, they were right there and had a great angle.”
“Coach, we’re not going there, I can’t let you criticize my teammate.”
“Coach, they had a great look, but if you have a specific question, you’ll have to ask them, they’ll be over here in just a minute.”
Coach is very animated and gesturing:
“Coach, I’m going to talk with you and answer your questions, but you must put your arms down/stop the gesturing.”
“Coach, please put your arms down. Now, what’s your question?”
Coach is raising their voice asking the question\:
“Coach, I can hear you/I’m standing right here, you don’t need to raise your voice.”
"Coach, I need you to stop raising your voice and just ask your question calmly.”
Coach is commenting on something every time down the floor:
“Coach, I need you to pick your spots, we can’t have a comment on every single call that is being made.”
Coach has a good point and might be right.
“You’ve got a good point and might be right about that play.”
“You might be right, that’s one we’ll talk about at halftime/intermission/the next time out.”
“You might be right; I may not have had the best angle on that play.”
Coach is venting, make editorial comments:
“I hear what you’re saying”
“I hear what you’re saying, but we’re moving on.”
Coach just won’t let it go:
“I’ve heard enough and that’s your warning.”

Following these guidelines has helped me with game management in my high school varsity games, and I don't hesitate to use them in lower level games, middle school, AAU, recreation, travel, etc.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 29, 2008, 12:35am
ODJ ODJ is offline
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Your assignor blew you out because the tourney is worth more (money) to him than you are.

T 'em and toss 'em.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 29, 2008, 12:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRef21
Good point Marco. You know at camp, I would never do that. I wanted to try some other method of communication with these guys. You know being 9th graders they are a bunch of smart asses. However I didn't take that into consideration. That was my mistake. I do feel it was wrong for both us to be pulled off those two games though. Yes my actions were inappropriate, but after working the 1st of 3 games, an assignor should come out in the floor and dressed ready to work with his new partner, and tell us that the admin is still upset about what happened. An assignor would let us finish the games. If we get a call the day before than thats fine. I was upset because the assignor is a friend and did that to my partner and I.
Tommy,
You have every right to be upset that he pulled you off the games. keep in mind that it's not his best interest to pull you. The assignor would rather not deal with the admin and let you ref the remaining two games. And he probably know in his head that the two of you did the right thing. If the admin is adamant that the two of you shouldn't ref the remaining games, then let it be. You don't need this AAU crap to prove that you're competent of officiating and just because you got pulled that doesn't make you a "bad" official. Matter of fact, you show maturity by letting it go so grow with it.

When it comes down to it, it's business for the admin and the assignor.
If he's your friend, step in his shoes and see it from his perspective.
Let's not get into this kind of BS in Vegas!
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 29, 2008, 12:44pm
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac

Top Reasons To Not Give A Technical Foul
• You can address a coach before it becomes a problem. A quiet word can go a long way in preventing a technical foul.
• When coaches complain, ask yourself, is the call questionable, is the call wrong. If they have a legitimate gripe, then allow them some latitude. Be courteous. Do not argue. Be firm and fair
• If you know a coach is upset then move away from him or her, even if it means that you and your partner are not switching or rotating properly.
• Warnings can be very effective in preventing situations from escalating. Don't tolerate a lot before a warning.
• Lend a reasonable ear. Coaches like to be heard. If you ignore them then they become more frustrated and are more likely to lose control.
• If an assistant is out of line, then you can speak to the head coach and ask them to help you out.
• If a player is out of line then let the coach know. Tell them you've warned their player. That way if you do give a technical foul, then the coach isn't surprised. Most good coaches will speak to the player first.
• If you have had a rough day and know your fuse is short, keep that in mind before you do anything rash. Ask yourself, does the situation come under one of the top reasons to give a technical foul.
• If necessary, give an initial strong warning. Let your partner know about the warning.
BLASPHEMY!!!!
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