Some help. AUU tourney situation

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Way, way too much talking and not enough doing on your part. Why should the players listen to you? You warned them- multi times- and then you failed to follow up on those warnings. The idea is that you give ONE warning only and then follow up on it. All you have to do is say "that's enough" and then just whack 'em if they don't listen.

2) Your assignor was completely wrong, if he took you off those games because of the reasons that you laid out. If he did so because you let the players get away with too much crap(which you did), I maybe could believe it.

1. I agree. This was a very long story that I wrote out for you guys.

2. After talking with the assigner, he said it was not because we let too much crap go. It was indeed the reasons which I laid out. I agree with the one warning. You know dealing with freshman basketball players, I wanted to try to at least talk the kid out of doing something dumb. I haven't worked that level for about 2 yrs. You know dealing with big guys at the varsity and college level, you talk to them once, they usually get the idea. Then if they get stuck with one, the coach usually pulls them out or screams at them. I guess was too nice with this one. Do you have anymore feedback in which I can use, to better myself when a situation arises like this again?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TRef21

You know dealing with big guys at the varsity and college level, you talk to them once, they usually get the idea. Then if they get stuck with one, the coach usually pulls them out or screams at them. I guess was too nice with this one.

That sums up nicely the problems that you had in that particular game.

You should have dealt with the players exactly as you wrote above. Give them one warning, and if they don't listen to that warning, then issue the immediate "T". If you do it that way, no one in the gym (including the players, coaches, tournament director and your assignor) can possibly have any legitimate complaint about your actions. All the extra talking and warning that you did ended up serving absolutely no purpose at all, did it?

If you take care of bidness properly, then you NEVER have any worries about the players, coaches and tournament directors. You KNOW that you handled the situation exactly the way that it should have been handled. And, as for your assignor, you can now ask him if he had any legitimate reason to take you off of the game, other than keeping a tournament director happy. If he can't come up with anything, put it down as a learning experience and don't put yourself in that position again with that particular assignor....unless you do AAU ball strictly for the money, like a lot of officials.

Jmo.

[JoeTheRef]

In regards to the assignor, if a High School or College AD or coach or a AAU host team administrator tells an assignor I don't want JoeRef at my school anymore because of XYZ reasons, chances are my assignor will probably not send me there. Its a business. Is it right? I don't think so, but it is a business. Just my .02.

[Scrapper1]

TRef, there's a lot of really good information and advice in this thread. And I honestly don't have a whole lot to add to it. I think Jurassic, and especially JRutledge, have really made some excellent points.

The only thing that I would add is that these "player management" skills that we're discussing don't just come naturally to everybody. I've been officiating for about 15 years, and do some college ball, and it's still sometimes a struggle for me at the college level. The good news is that AAU is the perfect place to work on it. (At that level, my experience has been that the best policy is generally, "whack early and whack often". )

[Back In The Saddle]

When it comes to "player management" you have to consider time and place as well as your audience. I've had two really painful lessons in that in the past few months. In a "real" game setting (regular season HS, etc.) a good team with a good coach is usually fairly easy to manage. If you're having trouble with a player, the coach usually sees it and pulls the player.

But in wreck leagues and summer ball, all bets are off. The mouthy punk kid is just as likely as not to have a mouthy punk coach who doesn't understand the first thing about disciplining his little superstars. Trying to manage punks by getting in their grill doesn't shut them down, it leads to escalated punky behavior. They don't understand they're getting a break; they think they're right (as always) and you're just attacking them. You can't fix stupid!

You can only demonstrate to the punk that his behavior consistently leads to an undesirable outcome. Eventually the punk learns that no matter how "unfair" it is, when he pops off he gets whacked. Eventually he'll stop doing it. Or else he proves himself to be such a stupid punk over time that no good coach will pick him up for any level of ball that you and I want to be working. Either way, we don't have to deal with his punky behavior any longer.

Bottom line: whack the little **** when he deserves it. And if the coaches won't take care of business, and the TD and assignor won't back you, then screw 'em. You don't want to be working in that situation then anyway.

Just my bitter $0.02

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You can only demonstrate to the punk that his behavior consistently leads to an undesirable outcome. Eventually the punk learns that no matter how "unfair" it is, when he pops off he gets whacked.

English translation: "Whack early, whack often."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

When it comes to "player management" you have to consider time and place as well as your audience. I've had two really painful lessons in that in the past few months. In a "real" game setting (regular season HS, etc.) a good team with a good coach is usually fairly easy to manage. If you're having trouble with a player, the coach usually sees it and pulls the player.

But in wreck leagues and summer ball, all bets are off. The mouthy punk kid is just as likely as not to have a mouthy punk coach who doesn't understand the first thing about disciplining his little superstars. Trying to manage punks by getting in their grill doesn't shut them down, it leads to escalated punky behavior. They don't understand they're getting a break; they think they're right (as always) and you're just attacking them. You can't fix stupid!

You can only demonstrate to the punk that his behavior consistently leads to an undesirable outcome. Eventually the punk learns that no matter how "unfair" it is, when he pops off he gets whacked. Eventually he'll stop doing it. Or else he proves himself to be such a stupid punk over time that no good coach will pick him up for any level of ball that you and I want to be working. Either way, we don't have to deal with his punky behavior any longer.

Bottom line: whack the little **** when he deserves it. And if the coaches won't take care of business, and the TD and assignor won't back you, then screw 'em. You don't want to be working in that situation then anyway.

Just my bitter $0.02

I don't work rec ball anymore, but I never gave warnings during rec or AAU ball. I just whacked early and often.

When someone asked why I didn't give a warning, I said "That was the warning. If he does it again, he's ejected."

That always rubbed people the wrong way at first, but it's amazing after a few weeks how people come around and realize there's more basketball and less BS than before and it actually makes it better for everyone involved, including the site admins and the coaches.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

In regards to the assignor, if a High School or College AD or coach or a AAU host team administrator tells an assignor I don't want JoeRef at my school anymore because of XYZ reasons, chances are my assignor will probably not send me there. Its a business. Is it right? I don't think so, but it is a business. Just my .02.

Exactly. Assignors are not your friends -- they are likely getting a cut of your game fee and, in general, they aren't going to throw away income to back one referee, regardless of how good you are. It's a bidness.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

In regards to the assignor, if a High School or College AD or coach or a AAU host team administrator tells an assignor I don't want JoeRef at my school anymore because of XYZ reasons, chances are my assignor will probably not send me there. Its a business. Is it right? I don't think so, but it is a business. Just my .02.

Can't completely agree.

It sureasheck is a business....but....assignors have to provide bodies(hopefully but not necessarily always capable bodies ) to fill available games. Assignors therefore depend on the officials that work for them to be available for those games. Unfortunately, in most states there also seems to be an annual shortage of officials. If an assignor starts to lose good people because of a failure to keep his officials fairly content, he/she ain't gonna be the assignor for very long imo.

It doesn't do any assignor any good to have a ton of games available unless he can provide officials to do those games. And you aren't going to keep your officials or have officials go the extra mile for you when you need them to if you're crapping on them like tref got crapped on. If a legitimate complaint is received about an official, fine, the assignor should deal with it. An official righteously taking care of bidness ain't ever a legitimate complaint though imo.

Officials make their assignors look good, not vice-versa.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can't completely agree.

It sureasheck is a business....but....assignors have to provide bodies(hopefully but not necessarily always capable bodies ) to fill available games. Assignors therefore depend on the officials that work for them to be available for those games. Unfortunately, in most states there also seems to be an annual shortage of officials. If an assignor starts to lose good people because of a failure to keep his officials fairly content, he/she ain't gonna be the assignor for very long imo.

It doesn't do any assignor any good to have a ton of games available unless he can provide officials to do those games. And you aren't going to keep your officials or have officials go the extra mile for you when you need them to if you're crapping on them like tref got crapped on. If a legitimate complaint is received about an official, fine, the assignor should deal with it. An official righteously taking care of bidness ain't ever a legitimate complaint though imo.

Officials make their assignors look good, not vice-versa.

I like your words.

[rockyroad]

As scrappy-doo said, there's lots of good info in this thread concerning game management skills...what I have learned over the years ( in reffing and in teaching middle school kids) is that I will NEVER win a "banter-battle" with the kids on the court or in the classroom. So I set my boundaries and when those boundaries are crossed there are consequences...the players and students appreciate that and know how far they can go and they actually like the comfort level that knowledge brings. To suddenly have an official who gets mouthy back at them is like throwing gas on their little testosterone fire - it just gets them hotter and madder and they take it further - and then we look bad because we said this or that...life is much simple when you just administer the consequences for poor behavior and not worry about trying to "teach the kid a lesson" so to speak.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

...what I have learned over the years ( in reffing and in teaching middle school kids) is that I will NEVER win a "banter-battle" with the kids on the court or in the classroom. So I set my boundaries and when those boundaries are crossed there are consequences...the players and students appreciate that and know how far they can go and they actually like the comfort level that knowledge brings. To suddenly have an official who gets mouthy back at them is like throwing gas on their little testosterone fire - it just gets them hotter and madder and they take it further - and then we look bad because we said this or that...life is much simple when you just administer the consequences for poor behavior and not worry about trying to "teach the kid a lesson" so to speak.

That's true for the "kids" at all levels...going up and into their 40's also....