Too many players on the court

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I took coach at his word, sure. I had no reason not to. He didn't claim anything that seemed outrageous. If I didn't think he was telling the truth, I'd have no reason to respond. Are we to assume all coaches are lying when they come here? That sounds overly skeptical, and I'm as skeptical as anyone.

THIS IS A MIDDLE SCHOOL AAU GAME!!!! I seriously doubt that the officials were afraid to do much of anything. I do not care what the coach says. A coach's point of view is very different than an official's point of view. I am sure six on the court is not only the biggest priority of the game, but a lot of other rules on uniforms, coaching boxes and I am sure all the mechanics are not used by the book and you come out as if the officials are afraid to enforce a rule? In some cases they are lucky they get two officials in the first place. My point is we need to have a little perspective.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Rut, calm down dude.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Rut, calm down dude.

Another example why some here need perspective badly. What is there to calm down about?

Peace

[Coach Bill]

To Mark Dexter: "But when they saw A1 step off the court, they didn't know that there were still five players left. IMO, no T in this case."

Wouldn't you have either:

1. Too many players
2. A player voluntarily leaving the playing court.
3. A player away from the bench area.

Aren't these all cases for a 'T'? You had to have something.

And, the refs admitted they saw him, but "He got off the court quickly, so we let it go". I got the 'T' for unsportingly asking "How can you just ignore the rules like that!!!"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

To Mark Dexter: "But when they saw A1 step off the court, they didn't know that there were still five players left. IMO, no T in this case."

Wouldn't you have either:

1. Too many players
2. A player voluntarily leaving the playing court.
3. A player away from the bench area.

Aren't these all cases for a 'T'? You had to have something.

And, the refs admitted they saw him, but "He got off the court quickly, so we let it go". I got the 'T' for unsportingly asking "How can you just ignore the rules like that!!!"

For the record, Coach Bill and I are not related nor am I posting under another name.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

To Mark Dexter: "But when they saw A1 step off the court, they didn't know that there were still five players left. IMO, no T in this case."

Wouldn't you have either:

1. Too many players
2. A player voluntarily leaving the playing court.
3. A player away from the bench area.

Aren't these all cases for a 'T'? You had to have something.

And, the refs admitted they saw him, but "He got off the court quickly, so we let it go". I got the 'T' for unsportingly asking "How can you just ignore the rules like that!!!"

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For the record, Coach Bill and I are not related nor am I posting under another name.

For the record, #2 is not a T. It's a violation (9-3-3), and only for doing so for an "unauthorized reason." But you knew that.
I doubt anyone here would consider the "6th man" getting his a$$ off the court to be less than authorized.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

To Mark Dexter: "But when they saw A1 step off the court, they didn't know that there were still five players left. IMO, no T in this case."

Wouldn't you have either:

1. Too many players
2. A player deceptively leaving the playing court.
3. A player away from the bench area.

Aren't these all cases for a 'T'? You had to have something.

And, the refs admitted they saw him, but "He got off the court quickly, so we let it go". I got the 'T' for unsportingly asking "How can you just ignore the rules like that!!!"

Better now, Adam?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Better now, Adam?

Not really. For two reasons.
First, I don't see how the OP could be considered a deceptive situation. It's more of an "Oh Sh!t" moment.
Second, and more importantly, I'm not finding anything in rule 10 about "deceptively" leaving the playing court being a technical foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

To Mark Dexter: "But when they saw A1 step off the court, they didn't know that there were still five players left. IMO, no T in this case."

Wouldn't you have either:

1. Too many players
2. A player voluntarily leaving the playing court.
3. A player away from the bench area.

Aren't these all cases for a 'T'? You had to have something.

Two of these are not Ts at all for what you have described. I will take it a step further as a couple of people have made it clear what is wrong with your statement. On #3 is also not illegal if one player or bench personnel has to leave the bench area. It is not illegal for one player to go to the locker room or go to another part of the court to deal with an issue like blood on the jersey to change or an injury. Having 6 on the court is the only thing that is going to warrant a T in this situation.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

And, the refs admitted they saw him, but "He got off the court quickly, so we let it go". I got the 'T' for unsportingly asking "How can you just ignore the rules like that!!!"

Easy, this is an AAU game. The purpose of these games is to have kids play the game of basketball, not follow all rules of the rulebook to the letter. And if you want to change that, then do not get upset when you get Ts for things like numbers on jersey being out of place or other uniform requirements, then I will worry about how many players are on the court and when to the letter.

Peace

[Coach Bill]

My fault. #2 is now just a violation, but it's a whistle at least. And, I think JRut is pushing it to imply that the 6th player was "going to the locker room" or "dealing with a blood issue". He jumped off in front of my bench and ran back to his bench and sat down.

But, he is right in that I believe it wasn't called because it's an AAU game. I had higher expectations from these refs. And, in the rare times this has happened in my AAU games, the T has always been called.

I was just responding to Mark Dexter, who admits to seeing the 6th guy jumping off the court but calls nothing. If he does that in his varsity high school game, then I think his evaluator would disagree.

[Coach Bill]

JRut: "get Ts for things like numbers on jersey being out of place or other uniform requirements, then I will worry about how many players are on the court and when to the letter".

Equating illegal jerseys with how many players are on the court? That's a good analogy. I think letting a team play with only 5 is pretty important. Let me know when you're reffing my game, so I know I can play 6 on 5.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I was just responding to Mark Dexter, who admits to seeing the 6th guy jumping off the court but calls nothing. If he does that in his varsity high school game, then I think his evaluator would disagree.

First off, thanks for bumping me up a level or two. I'll hopefully be there in a few years.

That said, I would hope that my evaluator would rather have me follow the rule than make what seems to be the right call.

Also, I'm not saying that I would ignore 6 players on the court. I have (and will continue to) called this a T, whether it's a situation where I should have counted or not. If, however, A6 steps off the court right next to me and only then do I notice that there are still 5 players out there, I'm not calling a T unless A6 comes back onto the court.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

To Mark Dexter: "But when they saw A1 step off the court, they didn't know that there were still five players left. IMO, no T in this case."

Wouldn't you have either:

1. Too many players

As I said before - this one is only a T if it's discovered while being violated. If a kid runs off the floor, then you count five on the court, you didn't discover it while there were six on the court. No T.

2. A player voluntarily leaving the playing court.

Might be a violation, but leaving the floor for an unauthorized reason is no longer penalized with a technical foul.

3. A player away from the bench area.

First off, check your definitions. Other than during intermissions and timeouts, players should generally be off the bench. Second, even if he were a substitute, the T is for leaving a bench area during a fight. Otherwise, we'd have a T whenever the JV players left to dress for the varsity game.

Aren't these all cases for a 'T'? You had to have something.

All I have is a "sorry, coach, we didn't see him when he was out on the court."

And, the refs admitted they saw him, but "He got off the court quickly, so we let it go". I got the 'T' for unsportingly asking "How can you just ignore the rules like that!!!"

Now we're talking differently. If they knew six were out on the court, but chose not to call it, you have a semi-legitimate beef. If they truly didn't even think to count until A6 ran off (which is what I assumed in my answers above), then there's nothing they can do. If a T is called, A's coach is going to have the right to go ballistic for ignoring the rules.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

THIS IS A MIDDLE SCHOOL AAU GAME!!!! I seriously doubt that the officials were afraid to do much of anything. I do not care what the coach says. A coach's point of view is very different than an official's point of view. I am sure six on the court is not only the biggest priority of the game, but a lot of other rules on uniforms, coaching boxes and I am sure all the mechanics are not used by the book and you come out as if the officials are afraid to enforce a rule? In some cases they are lucky they get two officials in the first place. My point is we need to have a little perspective.

Peace

Rut, you're not saying anything here I disagree with. My point about spineless refs was not directed at these officials. It was a general answer to a general question. I'll admit in context that it may not have come across that way, but I have already explained it.

Coach's POV here is actually pretty straight forward. He isn't claiming he got cheated, he's just wondering about the enforcement of this particular rule. I think, in an AAU game, if I noticed it as the 6th player was getting to his bench and there hadn't been an advantage and it hadn't happened previously in the game, I'd let it go.

My point is that I don't think anyone here has really come at this without proper perspective.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut, you're not saying anything here I disagree with. My point about spineless refs was not directed at these officials. It was a general answer to a general question. I'll admit in context that it may not have come across that way, but I have already explained it.

Coach's POV here is actually pretty straight forward. He isn't claiming he got cheated, he's just wondering about the enforcement of this particular rule. I think, in an AAU game, if I noticed it as the 6th player was getting to his bench and there hadn't been an advantage and it hadn't happened previously in the game, I'd let it go.

My point is that I don't think anyone here has really come at this without proper perspective.

You are missing the larger point. During AAU games there are often not the same structures or expectations. For example you might not even have players and the table in the proper place which makes any substitution an adventure because you cannot follow the same procedures you have in a real game. Whether the coach thinks he got screwed or not was also not the point I was making. And considering many games are not run under the same structure that a regular season, I would not suggest that the official did the wrong thing unless I knew more about the tournament. And I bet if the coach was had to answer, he probably would tell us about exceptions, upon exceptions of many rules in this and many tournaments. And usually how substitutions are done have many challenges to follow the proper rules with multiple courts next to each other and it being difficult to even have a clear bench area as the coach wants to suggest.

Peace